Shadowlands Hunter class changes

[Viikander-dalaran]

I think this video does a great job of addressing the concerns surrounding SV going into Shadowlands, and I encourage everyone to watch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHhmNuWRCl0&t=1s

[Arkade-elune]

That video has some smart ideas. I’d agree with making Flanking Strike baseline. Remove the leap effect, split the damage between the hunter and pet, give it KC’s 25% reset, and make it our primary focus generator. Really nail home the class fantasy.

And Serpent Sting needs a duration increase at the very least. Right now, its short duration makes it awkward and counter-intuitive to use. It feels like an interruption rather than a cohesive part of the rotation. Maybe make it identical to the Sting Marks can talent into.

Those two changes, together with the return of basic ranged abilities, would go a long way toward giving Survival the option of being ranged or melee. Which maybe would calm some people down around here.

[Bruffo-arthas (Bruffo)]

Well there are plenty of positives with this information, I do have some concerns…

Arcane shot paired with cobra shot makes no sense. Cobra shot IS arcane shot basically, it is our filler, it reduces Kill command cd, so we MUST use it over arcane shot, so what is its point? Might as well just give Arcane all the benefits of cobra and be done with it. Nobody really likes cobra shot anyways.

MM it looks like they are not fixing any of its root problems, and that is concerning…

And survival wow, what a identity crisis. Just a miss mash of random abilities and calling it a spec. Kill command makes no sense for this spec, neither does spirit bond, these are BM abilities…so why do they have key BM abilities? And killshot through a melee weapon? I am sorry but this spec is a total mess…

The covenant abilities look good and all, but if they are not easily switchable I see a lot of issues coming in the future. Some are clearly better than others, and if you make the wrong choice…gg.

[Natsuren-bleeding-hollow]

Unfortunately, I haven’t been granted alpha access so I’m not able to post feedback on the alpha forum section, but given there haven’t been major core changes to the way MM works, I see it having the same issues it currently has in Bfa. If anyone with alpha access finds this feedback useful/interesting, please take it into consideration when submitting your feedback.

I’ll start discussing MM’s core rotational issues and potential solutions (in my view), then go through some problematic talents and discuss a few items PVP related.

MM’s Core Issues

1. Too much of our damage comes from Aimed Shot. This puts too much reliance on an ability that has a relatively long cast time and forces us to stand still, which can be disadvantageous both in PVE and in PVP. Let’s not forget that in order to gain the Precise Shots buff, you need to cast Aimed Shot as well.
   While the return of Kill Shot is a wonderful addition to our spellbook, I feel like our rotation would greatly benefit from Chimaera Shot being baseline, not a talent, and from the removal of Precise Shots, to redistribute our damage sources and make us a bit more effective while moving. Note: Chimaera Shot would have to hit a lot harder than the current talent version (79% of AP vs. AiS’ 248.4%).

2. Arcane Shot doesn’t feel meaningful outside of Precise Shots. This one is rather straightforward and probably tied to #1, casting unbuffed Arcane Shots feels dull due to the fact it barely does any damage and it costs focus. The removal of Precise Shots would allow for this ability to hit harder, assuming its current damage (60% of AP) is increased.

3. Trick Shots needs to be re-worked to allow for 2 target cleave or simply removed. I feel like either of these options would work but I prefer to have it removed and perhaps change the way Multi-Shot works, increasing its damage and adding a 2 charge system to it, kinda the way AiS works now. We may run the risk of being focus starved often so re-working Trick Shots may very well be the easier option in terms of implementation.

Talents

1. First row (15): The new version of Master Marksman, when paired with Careful Aim, might prove to be very difficult to tune when it comes to numbers. I feel like AiS base damage would suffer due to how easily overpowered this combo might be. My suggestion would be to redesign Master Marksman so that AiS has a chance to ignore the target’s armor but I’m open to suggestions for this one.
   The other 2 choices (SS and Amoc) are interesting choices when tuned correctly, but they shouldn’t have a focus cost and SS’ duration should be increased, imo.

2. Second row (25): I would make Careful Aim baseline and only increase AiS damage on targets above 80% (we have Kill Shot now for sub 20% targets). I would replace Careful Aim with the new version of Volley, although I know Blizzard doesn’t like having 3 active abilities on the same row.

3. Fourth row (35, Focus regen row): Chimaera Shot (Ideally now baseline) would be replaced with a passive ability that either reduces the focus cost of Aimed Shot down to 25 focus or make it have a chance to restore a percentage of focus spent on each AiS cast.

4. Fifth row (40, Movement row): Not exactly sure about why Binding Shackles is competing with Posthaste and Born to be Wild here but I would make it a PVP talent, and I replace it with an old talent called ‘Crouching Tiger, Hidden Chimaera’ which essentially cuts our Disengage cooldown in half.

5. Sixth row (45): Lethal Shots seems to be an incredibly dull choice when compared to Double Tap and Dead Eye but I suppose we’ll have to wait and see what happens here.

6. Seventh row (50): I would increase the proc chance of Lock and Load to 10% and since I moved Volley to the 2nd row, I would replace this ability with one that I believe a lot of people like: Black Arrow (pre-Legion version). Open to suggestions for this one.

PVP related suggestions

1. Scatter Shot should be made a baseline ability and moved to the Disorient DR category.
2. I would certainly add talents such as ‘Tracker’s Net’ and ‘Diamond Ice’ to the pool of options for MM in PVP
3. Finally, please rework Viper Sting so that it drains mana once again.

I’m open to discuss these suggestions and I’m hoping this time around Blizzard will listen to feedback that we provide. Many of these ideas are perhaps personal preference and that’s fine, but I think a lot players would agree that as of right now a lot of the issues with MM will remain going into SL unless further changes are implemented.

[Scrabber-emerald-dream]

Which maybe would calm some people down around here.

Wouldn’t calm down the worst offenders who will settle for nothing but the deletion of the now-beloved melee spec in favor of a WoD survival being reintroduced in full form

It’s obnoxious, lol

[Strippendell-proudmoore]

That video has some smart ideas. I’d agree with making Flanking Strike baseline. Remove the leap effect, split the damage between the hunter and pet, give it KC’s 25% reset, and make it our primary focus generator. Really nail home the class fantasy.

And Serpent Sting needs a duration increase at the very least. Right now, its short duration makes it awkward and counter-intuitive to use. It feels like an interruption rather than a cohesive part of the rotation. Maybe make it identical to the Sting Marks can talent into.

Those two changes, together with the return of basic ranged abilities, would go a long way toward giving Survival the option of being ranged or melee. Which maybe would calm some people down around here.

Thats how they had Flanking strike working during the BFA beta when Flanking strike was a talent on the level 15 row but then they removed it for some strange reason

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

if you cannot be the top you are failing. Right now there is only 1 viable hunter spec sadly. BM is it, if you are playing hunter and not BM you are hurting anyone and everyone you group with.

Right now there’s 3 viable hunter spec. They ALL do the job. The community only care for the top 1%, its their fault… not the spec.

[Bepples-barthilas]

Because they are all “skills” ? I fail to see your logic there Crusader Bepples, they are merely abilities, the ranged weapon still isn’t the central part of the hunter class identity. That’s like saying if they made all animations of mages being cast from their staff would make said weapon the class identity.

How on earth in your mind does what you typed here address what I said? The fact that every baseline element they add is ranged-based doesn’t count because… they are all “skills”? You’re just putting words down in the post and not actually meaning anything.

Yes, Survival is already in a good spot, there’s hardly anything that needs to be changed mechanic wise… they only need to adapt the numbers.

Survival Hunters themselves admit it’s not in a good spot and it’s undesirable in most forms of content.

That is, of course, until someone starts arguing that it shouldn’t be melee. Then all of a sudden all its issues don’t exist and it’s the most perfect spec ever.

SV really viable and good, the problem isnt the class, the problem is you hatin on it cause you’re sad and the community wanting only the top of the top, which careless of xpac/patch or w.e there will always be a class that does better than others.

No, what he said is absolutely true. SV does not have anything that meaningfully distinguishes it in terms of utility or damage to the point that you would want to take it over anything else. This is compounded by the fact that melee spots in a raid are generally limited.

I know you are going to harp on about how nothing matters because SV can still queue up for LFR, but it really does actually matter. By this logic they should do no spec balancing at all, ever, and let some specs do 80% more damage than others at their best, just because it doesn’t matter for many players. Being competitive matters in an MMORPG.

That video has some smart ideas. I’d agree with making Flanking Strike baseline. Remove the leap effect, split the damage between the hunter and pet, give it KC’s 25% reset, and make it our primary focus generator. Really nail home the class fantasy.

People immediately identified Flanking Strike as a discount Kill Command right into the Legion alpha. It helped make it clear when they literally copy-pasted Kill Command’s description onto it in the first Alpha build. Changing Kill Command back to Flanking Strike would not meaningfully change the spec’s identity or how much of a BM rip off this iteration is.

Those two changes, together with the return of basic ranged abilities, would go a long way toward giving Survival the option of being ranged or melee. Which maybe would calm some people down around here.

Even if you could play it at ranged it would lack all the things that made ranged SV good and it would still have the completely incoherent BM-infringing identity it does now.

Wouldn’t calm down the worst offenders who will settle for nothing but the deletion of the now-beloved melee spec in favor of a WoD survival being reintroduced in full form

It’s obnoxious, lol

“now-beloved melee spec” lol. It’s incredible that you think the only opinions that matter are the people who currently play the spec. That clearly didn’t matter in the case of ranged SV and there were a hell of a lot more people who played and loved that version.

Did you think people only cared about melee v.s. ranged? There are these things called playstyle and identity, you know, and frankly ranged Survival was better in both departments. Plus, the old ranged SV had high potential for expanding into the realm of multidotting which would ACTUALLY be a highly unique niche among Hunters. The niche being “melee” is tokenistic and useless in any practical sense. It’s also forcing SV’s identity to be as hodgepodge and broken as it is now.

P.S. you know very well that if playing SV as ranged were viable in SL that would effectively end melee SV’s existence right there. No one would choose melee in any form of content.

[Yura-area-52 (Yura)]

I am happy kill shot is back, and chimera shot is atleast an option for MM now, even though I would still prefer it to be core to MM again.

Hunter’s mark seems clunky so far and maybe it would be better off with no damage bonus and only for stealth targets.

[Huntressluna-duskwood]

You mean give everyone the additional percentage as a given?

[Azagorod-emerald-dream]

How on earth in your mind does what you typed here address what I said? The fact that every baseline element they add is ranged-based doesn’t count because… they are all “skills”? You’re just putting words down in the post and not actually meaning anything.

Sorry that you ain’t thinking ? I duno what to say Crusader Bepples, you are still blind.

Survival Hunters themselves admit it’s not in a good spot and it’s undesirable in most forms of content.

Everyone from every class will say that… the opposite is being said as well. So like you said, you are typing to type?

No, what he said is absolutely true. SV does not have anything that meaningfully distinguishes it in terms of utility or damage to the point that you would want to take it over anything else. This is compounded by the fact that melee spots in a raid are generally limited.

So you are acknowledging its a community issue and not class issue. Thanks crusader Bepples. Since they bring the same thing / similar things that others have: DPS, Some form of CC, Other tools.

Did you think people only cared about melee v.s. ranged? There are these things called playstyle and identity , you know, and frankly ranged Survival was better in both departments. Plus, the old ranged SV had high potential for expanding into the realm of multidotting which would ACTUALLY be a highly unique niche among Hunters. The niche being “melee” is tokenistic and useless in any practical sense. It’s also forcing SV’s identity to be as hodgepodge and broken as it is now.

You are the one that care for ranged vs melee, you’ve been angry this whole time and keep venting on the forums. You always come in with hand picked data to boost your false claims.

Your personal fantasy of the class isn’t what Blizzard has in mind. Its time you grow up or snap out of your dream and come back to us, in the reality that Ranged SV is gone, that MM is there for you.

-Will ignore your next wall of text-

[Watermist-skywall (Watermist)]

/silently points to the title of this thread

“Shadowlands Hunter class changes”

NOT

“Arguments for/against RSV”

[Masoschism-bloodscalp (Masoschism)]

Please no… WOD sniper training bonus was a punishment in PvP.

I found it to be wonderfully skillful in pvp. This challenge was one of my favorite all time hunter playstyles.

I quit the game in WoD because of sniper training

This suggests to me you did not spend the time required to master it. I appreciate that. There have been changes * cough* Legion MM *cough * that I quit the game over and refused to spend the time to master as well. Nevertheless, mastering WoD Mastery felt quite rewarding to many.

[Mikuki-scarlet-crusade (Mikuki)]

Yeah this thread got derailed fast. Shame, was a good one too. Quit talking about ranged survival people, it ain’t coming back. Deal with it.

[Masoschism-bloodscalp (Masoschism)]

This will not even be remotely competitive just from a tuning standpoint

“Not competitive” doesn’t mean not a fun and viable option in certain situations. Situational abilities, or in this case full rotations are precisely what I have found most enjoyable in this game throughout its history. These situational abilities are also direct contributors to the “skill ceiling” that is commonly touted as what is most missed.

Of course this wouldn’t in any way have anything to do with old RSV, but in a “moving foward” perspective, it might be quite nice. I look forward to checking it out.

P.S. I am totally fine (even would really like) weapon swapping macros to maximize the change from ranged to melee as SV. It is immersive.

[Masoschism-bloodscalp (Masoschism)]

Just because autoshot damage is lower for the hypothetical arcane shot ranged surv build than autoattack is for melee surv

This is something that should absolutely be reverted. Give SV using a bow full damage on their bow. It will always still be subpar from a DPS perspective since the focus spenders are superior in melee, and if they aren’t, tune it so they are. The white hits do not have to be part of the tuning, that just feels like a punishment from the fun police.

[Foctordreeze-fenris]

MM’s Core Issues

Don’t forget about lone wolf. Having to sacrifice damage just to gain access to master’s call or lust not to mention the passives for having a pet out is not something the other two specs have to worry about. It’s terrible for MM especially in PvP where master’s call is mandatory.

Cmon alpha testers we’ve been talking about this stuff for the entirety of BfA, do your job. Talk about the core issues we still have then move on to the new stuff once they’re fixed.

[Lhorian-duskwood]

Please Blizz, class changes are nice but having so many of these GCDs being spent on buffs as an opener feels bad. Revert some of the GCD changes PLEASE.

The BM opening being 4-6 buffs doesn’t feel good (BW > Barbed x2 > another possible Barbed or 2 depending on price > Aspect of the Wild > maybe another Barbed). Barbed Shot’s only purpose is to maintain frenzy (and gain Dance of Death but that’s going away), the damage itself is negligible. With DoD and PI going away the only major change to this opening in Shadowlands will be Aspect > BW > Barbed though we still don’t know what the legendaries will do. This is still 3 GCDs on buffs, a possible 4th if the new final row talent is good and 5th if Hunters Mark is mandatory like it looks atm.

This kind of gameplay where you are spending 10 seconds buffing yourself is exactly why people hate the GCD changes in the first place. At least Barbed Shot has Stomp so it doesn’t feel like a complete waste of a GCD.

For me personally I hate BW on GCD as it does nothing but make my pet do more damage in the future when I finally get to cast Kill Command at the end of all the buffing. It’s CD is too low and it’s overall impact is too minor to spend a GCD casting it. I’d much rather you increase it’s value and CD as that will at least give us a burst window which we really lack. Short CD maintenance buffs like the current BW aren’t fun and technically BM has 2 of them (Barbed Shot).

Also, Hunters Mark doesn’t really belong to BM. I like the idea of it and the stealth detection is a good PvP addition for BM but please remove the damage increase, it’s something like 1.5%-2% overall damage increase anyway so just bake that into our single target abilities instead.

[Hyukin-kelthuzad (Hyukin)]

Could be worse. Aff locks are hitting 5 globals just to get damage going.

[Windsplitter-nagrand]

Spot on

It would be good to make master’s call (Freedom) baseline for all, with or without a pet. If the semantics don’t fit, can always change it to something that fits the theme