Actually I didn’t. Youtube has several 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 RSV guides still available. I remembered exactly how RSV played back then. It’s very clear that you don’t and you’re trying to deflect that by saying “oh you forgot key things but I won’t tell you what they are because it’s not worth my effort.” The only thing I forgot was that explosive shot had a 3 second dot (yet another dot!) attached to it and you didn’t want to spam ES procs and overwrite the dot to early. You waited a couple seconds, hit the 2nd ES proc and got a full 4-5 seconds of fire dmg on the second shot.
You’re damn right there is melancholy over the spec. I have not played a spec that I liked nearly as much as RSV. It had a unique play style, distinctly different from MM and BM despite what some claim, and it filled the role of hunter much better than current MSV does. Just because I miss it and want it back doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about. You clearly don’t know how it played or you’re intentionally trying to mislead others into believing the disingenuous information you’re trying to put out there.
It’s really something to see people constantly say to stop arguing about melee and ranged survival while at the same time complaining about one party or the other.
Anyway does anyone have any thoughts or feelings about marksman from a pvp standpoint going into shadowlands? Personally I’m really curious to see how they’ll play out in world pvp, especially with covenant skills being added into the mix.
What about making AC baseline, just how MM has LW baseline?
Or… and hear me out lol
Leave AC where it is, but allow us to have 2 pet bars? Maybe not benefit from the second pet family itself(like no lust and no spirit mend combo) but allow us to control 2 beasts, and their attacks?
I’m just spitballing ways to church the spec up since so many find it boring or low skill. Adding a second pet bar with other buttons and further resource management to consider when clicking those buttons sounds kind of fun, plus, we’re beast masters… why don’t we have more influence over beasts than anyone else?
yea it’s just another problem with the baseline bfa spec being garbage imo. tbh i forgot what the current talent even did because i haven’t changed it all of bfa. seems like something that should just be built in to precise shots. building up to instant aims with the old one just felt good.
i feel like steady shot used to give a lot more focus too, probably because we have 2 generators now for some reason.
I’m disappointed they haven’t addressed the core issues with MM in pvp. Scatter shot and Trap sharing DR. The other hunter specs have Intimidation stun into trap. The kitting toolkit isn’t enough in MM since they removed the binding shot stun and bursting shot disorient in legion and kiting is further crippled by the increased aimed shot cast time which all your damage is locked behind. I also don’t like rapid fire from a personal preference standpoint… I wanted to be an archer not a machine gunner. lol
You’re not describing a discount version of a spell at all. You’re describing a version 2 of a spell.
I think we have a differing opinion of what counts as BM’s “signature ability.” I for sure don’t think it’s Kill Command. That’s just BM’s button to make their pet hit harder.
Look, I 100% want SV’s Kill Command replaced with a baselines Flanking Strike. But it would, mechanically, still be SV’s Kill Command. Just with a new name.
Which begs the question that’s always on my mind when I see your posts: Are you pissed because SV is infringing on BM thematically, or mechanically? They’re not the same thing. When you break down the mechanics of this or any similar game, you start to see a lot of similarities across options hidden under different dressing.
And one of the primary growth paths is, as you describe, a command of a number of beasts. Crap, the default MM Hunter is himself and the pet. MM hunters have to choose to move away from that. Is MM infringing on BM’s identity there, too? Or would they be, if they had spell that told their pet to smack their target a little harder?
Seriously asking. I’m trying to understand the exact limit of your cherry-picking defense of BM in support of ranged SV.
I don’t love this either. I don’t. And I get where you’re coming from when you say Spirit Bond was signature BM. I agree with that point. But mechanically, SV’s Spirit Bond is different than BM’s Master of Beasts. Give the name back to BM, fine. Name SV’s Mastery “Who Gives a Crap.” And watch as nothing about how either class changes!
Again, is it mechanics, or is it theme you’re upset about?
These are not, by any means, SV’s primary elements mechanically or thematically, and you know it. Coordinated Assault is a weak and boring cooldown that needs a redesign, but that point is far and away separate from your crusade against Survival for infringing on BM. The pet is one of Survival’s tricks, and Survival is going to utilize the pet in some small way thematically and mechanically.
Survival’s Kill Command is a quick focus regen. That’s it. That’s all. It’s a mechanical requirement, but it does not and is not intended to distinguish the spec mechanically or thematically in any way beyond utilizing the pet in some minor way as part of the hunter’s bag of tricks.
Survival is still using “special munitions.” They just look different. A poisoned crossbow and a bow. I’d be down for throwing a frosty option in there, for sure. But if you defined Survival’s identity by those special munitions, good news: They’re still there.
On the flipside: You rightfully disagree with people who insist ranged Survival and MM were too similar because they both used ranged weapons. It’s reductionist, but your position there is fair. They were distinct in the way they used those ranged weapons.
But BM and modern Surv are, despite your insistence otherwise, distinct in how they utilize their pets. So your argument against people who insist old SV was too similar to MM undermines your argument as to why modern SV is too similar to BM.
I’m not saying “more representative.” I’m saying “representative of a factor of the original class fantasy.”
Again, you’re undermining your own argument. Ranged weapons are 100% integral to class identity, based on that old instruction manual page? Alright, well, based on that page, I posit that pets are 100% integral to class identity. So why isn’t MM using its pet?
I mean, they can, but the pet adds nothing right now. So, if the pet’s 100% integral to the class identity, MM needs some method to take advantage of the pet. Something to leverage the pet into more DPS, and/or a spell to order the pet to smack its target harder.
What then, Bepples? Will MM be infringing on BM’s identity? Again, you’re making with the cherry picking.
They do use a ranged weapon. A couple. They just don’t equip one. Once again, a difference between theme and mechanics.
I wholeheartedly disagree. What is the mechanical difference between Wildfire Bomb and Explosive Trap? More importantly in my mind, what’s the thematic difference? And what about Steel Trap? Or the talents that buff Serpent Sting’s utility?
Like I said above: BM orders their pet(s) around and relies on them basically exclusively. Survival orders their pet around a bit, and does not rely on them any more heavily than it relies on Serpent Sting or Wildfire Bomb.
Weird flex, coming from someone living two expansions back. But if we wanna make this about a mistaken focus on builds, can I point out that BM us currently all about that two-pet jam?
It’s in the crossbow. In the bomb. In Steel Trap. Again, it’s the difference between theme and mechanics.
I still can’t tell which you care more about, because you seem to think they’re the same thing. But, hey, if having the option to use a bow is that important to you? Gestures towards Shadowlands
It needs some work, but the foundation is there. And yet, if built out, it’s gonna be the same spec: Poisoned crossbow, throwing bombs, and telling the pet to bite the target.
Already addressed this.
Thank you for clarifying that. I disagree.
Many of the issues you seem to have with the class aren’t mechanical, and the mechanical issues it has suffered from are separate from the theme. Melee hunter is not an impossibility, you just don’t like it and want to use the (admittedly extensive) birth pains as evidence you’re right.
BM’s a Pokemon master. One pet, seventeen pets, I don’t care. Pokemon master. And a bunch of pets remains a choice - it’s not presently the mechanically superior option, but it’s clearly an intended thematic option.
And BM continues to leverage their pet(s) in a significantly different manner than Surv.
MM’s improvements since Legion do nothing to fix any issues associated with a Hunter spec lacking a pet (no, not even the pet they can throw out with minimal interaction and at mechanical loss of performance) and working well mechanically isn’t even something that depends on not using a pet.
Sorry, that wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I was more trying to point out that you’re not alone, and that for good or ill, Blizzard is always trying to give us new options. Some players want things to never change, others want new stuff to try constantly. Hard to say which is honestly the “better” way to go, but it’s clear which way Blizzard is leaning in their design.
I understand not liking it, and I understand being frustrated over it. But do you recognize that if Blizzard gave you your way tomorrow, and reverted the whole game to whatever you believe the perfect iteration was, you would be replaced by a player who believed a different iteration was the perfect iteration?
Would you consider that player’s opinion as valid as you consider your own now?
I get voicing a desire for change. But there’s a point where you’re clearly much more interested in what you want from the game than what the community wants for the game, and possibly at the exclusion of what might make a good game. And I think you’re well past that point.
Both these statements are reliant on a confirmation bias. There were plenty of people who hated Survival back then, plenty of people who love Survival now. Let’s not let the vehemence of our personal opinions make us believe that the majority agrees with us.
Great, I’ve been playing off and on since Vanilla. Maining or primary alting a hunter all the while. Good to know you agree my opinion matters more than many other player’s opinions. I mean, I don’t need it to. But glad you think it does.
Okay, let me clarify something real specific about my position: If Survival went back to full range tomorrow, I’d be fine. As long as it’s well designed and thematically different, I don’t give a crap where it’s standing in the fight or what weapon it slots into its main hand!
I don’t have favoritism. You do. That is projection.
You don’t give a crap about their design decisions. You give a crap that they took something from you, and you have spent four years employing a haphazard array of cherry-picked arguments to get back what you want - all the while attacking people like me who are willing to find the fun instead of demand we be catered to.
Update: Carve was just updated to only hit up to 5 targets. Previously the damage component was uncapped but the CDR was already capped from BFA. Now the damage itself is capped.
Next stop: Wildfire Bomb. The AoE capping change is a dreadful one that will severely harm the game, but if they are going to force it on us they’d better force it equally. It would be especially egregious if they blurted out all that PR BS about how they want melee to be all about cleave and ranged to be all about true AoE while doing the exact opposite when it comes to Hunters.
It also seems that the covenant ability for Night Fae is this instead, rather than the trap:
Sentinel: Summon a sentinel at the target location that applies Sentinel’s Mark to all enemy targets below it for 15 sec.
While the sentinel is active, each ability you use against a target affected by the Sentinel’s Mark calls forth a spirit beast to strike your target for Arcane damage.
Not sure what the status of Bristleweed Trap is but it may be scrapped.
Post updated. I’ll respond to the melee SV spin-doctoring apologia above momentarily.
Like I said, it doesn’t matter whether you think it’s as good/better/worse than the BM version. What matters is they took something that belonged to BM and cloned it into SV.
P.S. It’s worse because it fails to live up to the namesake and intent of “KILL Command” by not being a really hard-hitting spell from your pet but instead being a weaker focus generator.
How does
And it would still be problematic because it’s still a heavy pet focus which is BM’s forte. We do not need ranged BM and melee BM in this class.
SV and MM pet interaction should begin and end at having a pet with all the pet-based utiity they come with. Neither of them should have a focus on interacting with the pet. When they do, it takes away from BM and makes it less unique and that isn’t fair.
The problem is more thematic than mechanical, but they both tie in to one another.
There is no “army of beasts” option for BM. There is a talent that lets you have a second one of your tamed, bonded pets out, or one that lets you summon a random pet one-at-a-time in addition to your main pet. These options are notably mutually exclusive. There is still a strong bond between the Hunter and the pet. Survival does not meaningfully distinguish itself in this regard. You’re trying to act like a couple talent options make BM’s approach to pets entirely different and, notably, less valuable. You don’t say it outright but that’s what you mean when you say that Survival bonds with a pet more strongly than BM.
MM does not infringe on BM’s identity and is fine the way it is; having the pet as an option because all Hunters do, but being notably independent of that pet. Survival was the same before Legion. They left the pet interaction to BM because that’s what made sense. If MM got a spell like Kill Command it would infringe on BM’s identity. Simple.
I don’t care about Spirit Bond’s mechanical distinction. This part is specifically a thematic matter. Spirit Bond was always a BM thing. It should belong to BM. SV should not have a mastery called Spirit Bond that gives a self heal when your pet is active. It should have its own mastery. I understand it’s difficult to come up with a unique mastery that ends up being interesting and viable, but the fact that SV’s mess of an identity makes it harder doesn’t mean it should get stuff that belongs to BM.
Kill Command is different mechanically, but not by a lot in the grand scheme of things. Coordinated Assault’s distinction is even less apparent. But the crux of the issue here is the thematic side of things. Both of those things really aren’t distinct from what BM does at all when it comes to the theme and aesthetic.
Stop with this “bag of tricks” talk. Survival doesn’t just get to take all of BM’s stuff because it’s the spec that “does everything”. It doesn’t make much sense for Survival to be focusing on a pet, period. It doesn’t have any precedent for that sort of thing. In every expansion before Legion it had the exact same interaction with the pet as MM did. The ONLY reason they have the pet interaction now is because they need to meaningfully tie Survival to the Hunter class now that it doesn’t have a ranged weapon. So it’s basically a tokenistic inclusion and yet another bandaid fix for melee Hunters.
No, it isn’t. Serpent Sting is not enough. It had Explosive Shot as well when it was ranged, as well as Black Arrow. I never particularly agreed with Black Arrow being themed in the way it was but it was still a “buffed shot” at least. Plus, it lacks a ranged weapon. Using a placeholder ranged weapon in an animation is really not the same, thematically or mechanically, as actually having a ranged weapon.
They really aren’t. They use a cooldown themed around increasing the pet and hunter’s damage at the same time and an ability based on commanding the pet to attack. The only meaningful difference is the mehcanical distinction of Kill Command generating focus instead of spending it, which doesn’t make the general pet approach of Survival convincingly different at all.
MM can and does use it pets when it needs to, though. It still readily has access to the pet. Even if it didn’t, pets are practically not nearly as important to the Hunter identity as the ranged weapon. Even on the manual page the ranged stuff comes first and foremost. Adding a petless option required adding a passive talent; minimal change to the identity and playstyle of MM and SV when they did it. Adding a melee Hunter required totally canning a ranged spec and replacing it with something with no ties to what it was before. So it’s pretty clear which one is more important.
Uh, no, it doesn’t need that. Having a pet is enough. That’s how MM and formerly SV did it every expansion beforehand.
OK, so exactly what I said: arbitrarily restricting itself from using a ranged weapon.
Not equipping one is not opportunist. It’s the opposite. It’s throwing away the single most powerful and significant opportunity over enemies Hunters have. A single ability based on a sidearm ranged weapon really isn’t a substitute.
In ranged Survival you had Trap Mastery which made all traps have a shorter cooldown and enhanced effects, and Entrapment which made Snake Trap and Ice Trap root the targets. Both baseline passives. So the utilitarian trapper theme people like to credit to Survival was done way, way better by ranged Survival. Melee Survival has no baseline trap enhancement and has to pick an extra trap via talent or a buffed Freezing Trap via PvP talent to have anything of the sort.
I actually think Wildfire Bomb is a really good representation in the core damage toolkit of the utilitarian theme, as is Serpent Sting, but they are both actively contradicted by the melee elements of the spec, not to mention ill-fitting of the BM ripoff elements of the spec.
It really doesn’t solve things to have SV limit its BM ripoff aspects to just part of the spec. It’s still ripped off BM. Just because it’s not the whole spec doesn’t make it not bad.
Can I point out that Animal Companion is NOT “commanding an army of pets” and there is still a strong bond with those pets?
No, it isn’t in the crossbow. It doesn’t have the capability to properly use a ranged weapon so it really can’t be called a “jack of all trades”. It misses out on the most basic skill of a Hunter in this game.
Most of this discussion is centred around theme. Survival mostly works fine from a mechanical perspective. But so did ranged Survival. The reason they gave for removing ranged Survival was thematic yet that’s the primary problem area of melee Survival.
It’s overwhelmingly likely that a ranged weapon Survival will not be remotely passable next expansion. Even if it were this is still a really sucky baseline for a spec. It still has all the baggage of melee Survival, namely the dependence on BM aspects. It would still lack Explosive Shot and Lock and Load, the most successful mechanical elements of ranged Survival.
Survival’s identity right now entirely rests in its tokenistic distinction on being the melee spec and it has an incoherent toolkit thrown together to try to make that work. Making it ranged is great and all but then you’re just left with the incoherent toolkit. To properly restore Survival they need to bring back the things that made ranged Survival great. A real focus on special munitions. Independence from pets. A baseline improvement to trapping. Oh, but keep Wildfire Bomb because that would actually fit pretty well with ranged Survival.
Well there is one big mechanical issue: the fact that it isn’t ranged. This is also a thematic issue but it matters from a gameplay perspective as well.
It’s ridiculous to call this just “birth pains”. We are 4 years into having a melee Survival in WoW and we are no closer to it making any more sense than when we started. 4 years after Explosive Shot was added, which was really the starting point of the ranged Survival we all knew and loved, we were into the MoP iteration which is widely considered to be one of the best Hunter spec iterations we’ve ever had.
P.S. as melee Survival grows it just becomes less and less melee focused. It’s going to have just two abilities that use a melee weapon. 4 abilities in its toolkit will be using a ranged weapon; two it will ignore and currently require a ranged weapon equipped, and two use the wonky side-arm crossbow animation. If you spec into Flayed Shot, add another to that group. Then you of course have 2 abilities that use neither a melee weapon nor a ranged weapon. So melee is less of a defining part of the spec and more of a vestigial limitation, kind of like how melee ended up back in Vanilla to Cataclysm except this time it’s forced on the spec. So what was the point of all this?
It doesn’t.
Because there is no issue to fix. MM has always been relatively independent of pets and that makes sense. WoD, Legion, and BFA just made it possible to literally play without one.
Nope because they came later and in smaller numbers.
Ranged Survival was more popular with the community and ultimately better for the game.
Hmm, no, it’s pretty widely known that it’s a niche spec. It’s rare to come across one and in trackable content its representation falls far behind anything ranged Survival accomplished, and most other specs for that matter. It certainly wasn’t something you’d see often if at all to zone into a random battleground and see 5-10 Hunters, none as Survival.
I don’t doubt there are veterans who like melee Survival. I’ve met some. But I’ve definitely noticed that a lot of the forum support for ranged Survival comes from alts.
It’s both. I don’t like when my favourite things are taken away from me. No one does. But SV is not just my personal niche thing I liked. It was a very popular spec that provided a lot of exploration into ranged weapon archetypes. By going melee we lose that and we gain all sorts of ever-present design issues associated with having a Hunter spec lacking a ranged weapon. It isn’t good for the class.
First off, not getting in-between you two in this discussion. You guys just…you do you really.
But in regards to your comment about a modern design for ranged SV which has/must have thematic as well as mechanical differences from that of the other specs we have as Hunters.
How about this(link below)?
Note that the post was not made with the intention of removing current SV. But let’s put that aside for the sake of this…particular part.
P.S. I put that concept together well before Shadowlands was announced so, any changes we’re seeing in SL, aren’t part of it’s intended design.
Although, since we seem to be getting Arcane Shot as a class-wide ability, I would just remove Quick Shot from that concept and replace that with AS instead.
Anyway, if you focus on both it’s mechanical elements and it’s thematic approach to the design, would you say that it does manage to distinguish itself from that of MM? Or BM or MSV for that matter.
If you have any questions regarding the design or my intentions behind it, feel free to ask them.
Generally like it, with a couple mechanical tweaks and a couple personal notes.
First, I don’t feel like Lock and Load does enough to nail home the class’s current mechanic of interplay between abilities. I also think the loadout suffers from just a touch of button bloat.
I might do something like remove Immolation Trap as part of the core rotation, since it fits generally the same purpose as Explosive Shot. Replace Cobra Shot with a Kill Command/Flanking Strike equivalent for Focus regen - I just firmly believe Survival should leverage its pet in a minor way as one of its available tricks. (Also, I think Cobra Shot is a needless reflavoring of the iconic Arcane Shot.)
I’d also, and this is entirely personal, replace Black Arrow with a frost-themed equivalent. Leave it with the DoT or replace the DoT with a brief debuff that offers a slight increase to the damage of one or more other attacks, but either way: I always felt Black Arrow was too closely tied to Sylvanas’ Dark Hunters in general and didn’t fit real well as an ability available to hunters across the board. Plus, adding a Frost shot in there would be a nice nod to old-school ammo options, which I loved.
I might also tie Multi-Shot to Explosive Shot instead. Make it burst Explosive’s debuffed target, rather than spread Serpent Sting.
I’d change Lock and Load to give Quick Shot a change to either reduce the cooldown on or reset a charge of Explosive Shot - or, if you’re feeling the gamble, immediately refresh the DoT or debuff applied by one of the “ammo” abilities.
Those changes would necessitate some changes to talents, but overall I’d play it. I particularly like the idea of Multi-Shot cleaving one of the normal shot’s debuffs, and your changes to Explosive Shot (which I find annoying as a two-press skill shot).
In fact, you just made me realize that I would really like modern Survival to have a frost-themed attack option.
Sorry, forgot to answer this specific question: Yes, it would do plenty to distinguish itself from BM and MM, while being functionally different from current SV (without just being the removal of melee weapons, and with the added bonus of making the ranged weapon really matter).
Your concept, with or without my tweaks, does will to fit what I believe Survival’s identity is and should be (independent of being melee or ranged): Where BM relies on the pets, and MM relies on powerful ranged attacks, Survival sits somewhere between with a bag of tricks.
Note: Below is just my intention with the design. Your preferences are ofc your preferences
My intent with it for that design was to keep it close to what it was in the past for RSV.
I did not want it to have the annoyance we see with many other bonus charge-based mechanics in this game that are of a more recent design.
Barbed Shot for BM is one example. Sure, they made it have 2 charges baseline so it wouldn’t be so infuriating when you got Wild Call procs. But still, I find it annoying when Wild Call procs occur slightly before you actually need them as, it results in a waste of the CD timer.
Meaning? Lock & Load in that concept, adds a bonus charge of Explosive Shot on top of what you already have, and it does not in any way affect the default charge-system of Explosive Shot. So if you have 1 charge left, and the second one is re-charging and you get a proc of L&L, then the base charge will continue to finish even if you now technically have 2 charges ready.
(This also happens to suit a design focused on the idea of the potential of multi-dotting more than the other alternative).
Keep in mind that the concept in that link, contrary to the current hunter specs, don’t get any additional abilities from talents.
You have the option through talents to replace your basic spender with one tied to your pet(for preference or just cases where you want more control over your pet or want to make sure that enemies hit your pet and not yourself).
This was very much intended from my end. I dislike the idea that a spec like BM has very few abilities baseline but then has the option to add in 6 additional abilities through talents alone. All of which are more or less stand-alone with zero interaction with anything else.
To me, that’s basically a waste of talent space. Talents should allow for you to modify your baseline toolkit and what your baseline abilities do rather than focusing on adding in completely new ones, again IMO ofc.
Also worth noting is that those default abilities found in there, were all in their own ways signature features of the old RSV and it’s past iterations.
Part from Quick Shot that is. Although like I said, due to Arcane Shot in SL, we might as well replace Quick Shot in there with AS.
The part with Immolation Trap is actually meant as a theme-accurate replacement to A Murder of Crows.
It has a longer default CD than traps normally do as, it’s not intended to be a “rotational” ability. But rather a situational one.
“The same purpose as Explosive Shot”
You mean in that it deals Fire damage?
I agree that the spec should not be like MM in the sense that pet reliance is not promoted in any way at all really. Beyond the mere basics.
My intent with the design was for it to allow for a middle-ground. Currently, the design allows us to have both Lone Wolf as a baseline passive for those that don’t want to rely on pets. But it does have a few optional talent choices that allows for anyone who wants to, to focus more on the pet. For general preference or for doing quests/leveling etc.
If you put in baseline pet-reliance like BM and MSV has, that middle-ground goes away. And since we already have 2 specs that lean towards that extreme, I’d rather keep it optional.
We all have our preferences ofc.
I decided to keep Black Arrow in there as, in WoW that ability is IMO a defining one in order to achieve something that is similar to the old RSV.
+Black Arrow for the Hunter class in WoW was not intended like the original WC3 ability where you reanimated corpses to fight for you. In WoW, they designed that ability to be more neutral in theme.
Having said that, if they rename it to something else, I wouldn’t really care as much. But the mechanical elements tied to it, I want to keep for the sake of the spec as a whole.
Again, preferences are what they are.
Serpent Spread is however another effect strongly associated to the old RSV. Back from the days where SV, contrary to the other specs, allowed us to apply Serpent Sting to several targets at once.
Something I’ve noticed that a lot of players comment on in today’s WoW.
You could ofc change it so Serpent Spread came from Explosive Shot, although that makes no sense whatsoever if you ask me.
Or did you mean something like below?
Ever Burning - Explosive Shot now deals damage to all enemies near your primary target.
Some of those things are already there, although maybe not exactly as you want them to.
But to mention some examples:
Exotic Munitions - Your auto attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow or Immolation Trap by 5 seconds on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.
T.N.T - If Explosive Shot is used on an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the charge’s remaining duration is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds. An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.
Exotic Munitions-procs now also increase the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charge you have on the current target by 3 seconds.
Spitting Cobra - Cobra Shot now extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec, up to a max of 15 seconds.
In addition, Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
Catalysis - When Black Arrow deals damage to an enemy target, damage caused by Explosive Shot against that enemy is increased by 10%.
In addition, when one of your abilities deal Fire damage to an enemy affected by Black Arrow, you have a chance to gain this effect as well.
This effect lasts for X seconds. Stacks up to 10 times.
You then also have the bottom section that focuses on bonus perks that come from other sources in the game, perks that add somewhat minor effects that could still be very useful.
(1) Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.
(2) When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc. It will grant you an additional bonus effect depending on which periodic damage-effect it benefits.
Serpent Sting - Until the current Serpent Sting debuff expires or is refreshed, every time it deals damage to the target, you instantly gain 3 Focus.
Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown on Black Arrow is instantly reset.
Immolation Trap - Your next Immolation Trap will deal an extra X% damage and will also have an increased X% chance to critically hit the affected target.
(4) Quick Shot now triggers the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” when it hits an enemy target.
I’m gonna start here, since what I say will feed back to your previous point (and a thought you left unfinished - I hope you don’t mind if I guess where you going with it).
I don’t think Kill Command - any version of it - represents a heavy pet focus. I think that Kill Command or some equivalent represent a minor interplay between hunter and the pet I believe to be as iconic to the class as you believe ranged weapons to be.
BM’s focus - identity - is not tied to one button that makes its pet(s) hit harder. It’s tied to a number of abilities that buff the pet actively and passively. I wouldn’t argue the other two specs should have that. But one button to lay down a quick smack? I wouldn’t see that as infringing on BM.
That said, I see where you’re coming from and would encourage Blizzard to tweak the button slightly for the other specs. I just think SV’s Kill Command is a good tweak.
… And Murder of Crows, Stampede, and Spitting Cobra - all of which I believe should be exclusive to Beast Mastery for thematic reasons, and all of which benefit from BM’s theme-supporting Mastery.
Disagree. BM’s identity is about a lot more than that one button, and the other classes wouldn’t be infringing on BM at all by having a button or mechanic that leverages the pet in some small way. I think focus generation is a good way to meet that.
Regardless, the thing I like least about MM is that it doesn’t leverage the pet in some small way. It literally drives me away from the spec. I think the pet is as iconic to the hunter class identity as you think the ranged weapon is. And the pet optionally “just being there” isn’t enough.
Though … they’re giving us back Hunter’s Mark. I’d be satisfied with that effect being moved to a passive where we deal more damage to our pet’s target. For all specs.
(Still like Survival’s KC mechanic, though).
Eh, I could take or leave the self-heal for the hunter either way. I like it for the pet, and that definitely makes sense as being part of BM’s identity. The heal, either way, does not fit Survival’s theme at all. I’ll readily admit that.
But the other part of Survival’s Mastery is unique. It buffs the hunter’s and the pet’s focus spenders. The pet’s focus spenders? Yeah, that’s honestly kind of infringing on BM. Thinking on it, I’ll give you that. But even without the pet component, it’s a fairly unique (if boring, like many are) Mastery.
Would be cool if they switched it so Survival dealt more damage to targets based on the number of DoTs on the target. That would be more in line with BM’s pet damage mastery, be more interesting than a passive buff on focus spenders, and serve to further distance BM and Survival.
SV’s KC divides damage between the hunter and pet, offers focus regen, and has a passive reset. It’s, like … super different than BM’s “hit harder” button.
Survival’s not taking “all of BM’s stuff.” The spec, in its current iteration, is not focused on the pet. The pet isn’t even Survival’s primary damage source! Just stop.
Like, thematically back in Legion? Yeah. Too focused on the pet. Not mechanically, but thematically. But they’ve done some moving from that. Survival doesn’t do anything to buff the pet in any meaningful way. Survival doesn’t rely on the pet as a primary damage source. Survival exhibits a partnership with the pet in a small way that is entirely in line with hunter’s core identity.
Wildfire Bomb. Could use a frost option, though!
Man, we agree here in a big way.
Yeah, I just don’t think the gun in hand is as important as you think it is. I think reliance on that undermines a lot of well-established fantasy tropes, and even goes so far as undermining WoW’s own iconic BM hunter, Rexxar.
The damage increase occurs only when they work together. BM hunter gets a damage increase - as a recyclable mini-CD - that allows the BM to command its pet to do more damage to one target while the hunter could feasibly be dealing more damage to another.
Survival’s CD is boring, but distinct - mechanically and thematically. Its the difference between leveraging the pet, and commanding the pet.
If you have an issue with that aspect of things, I get it. But, again, BM’s more the Pokemon trainer (without all of Ashe’s “pokemon are our friends” nonsense - that clearly doesn’t work, Ashe, you never win).
And … splitting damage. Again, leveraging the pet versus commanding the pet.
Yeah, see, I totally disagree with this. But it sheds a lot of light on the core of our difference of opinion on what infringes on BM and what doesn’t.
I really do think the ties are still there. Survival used to use an array of tricks, survival continues to use an array of tricks. I don’t care if that do that at range or in melee, the array of tricks is independent of where they are standing. But that means I also don’t think the array of tricks is undermined by using a melee weapon.
And, again, totally disregarding melee as an option totally disregard established fantasy tropes and WoW’s own lore.
… BM’s single most power and significant opportunity over enemies is its pet(s), though.
Traps in combat was a dumb idea. Traps are supposed to be something you laid down and wait for your prey to stumble into. Traps being thrown at the enemy so they just go off mid-combat? That’s a bomb.
So, in that regard, traps have been replaced by Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting, both of which have very cool options for how to work with them. And then you have Steel Trap for the bloody root.
The trapper theme survival had may be gone (and good riddance). The utilitarian theme is not.
I don’t see the contradiction. But then, I see them as able to exist in their current form regardless of where the hunter is standing.
But you keep acting like it is the whole spec. Like one command to make your pet hit the target and one boring CD is somehow the equivalent of or more important than BM’s whole trick of buffing pets, calling extra beasts, inducing a feral rage in their pets and themselves …
From here I’d mostly just be reiterating points I’ve already made.
You will not get anything with Bepples, the guy been hating hardcore the new SV spec with pure hate and will continue to do so until he quits the game or gets banned.
Hes been trying to confuse people with walls of text and hand picking portions of data to boost his claims.
The new survival is amazing, well designed. Just needs some number tweaking. And is in no way a BM hunter.
BM = Make the pet do all the work.
SV = Work with the pet.
We used to have the old SV talent: Exotic Munitions, which was essentially a toggle-ability that allowed us to change the type of ammunition we used between “Incendiary/Frozen/Poisoned Ammo”.
While those weren’t exactly designed as specific abilities, but were tied to our Auto Attacks, they partially achieved something like that.
As for Frost-themed abilities, I would prefer if those stayed with DKs and Frost Mages. That’s just me though.
Aww, come on. I’m genuinely enjoying myself reading the discussion between Arkade and Bepples. Arkade brings up fantastic points and questions and Bepples has been responding to them pretty peacefully. And I really liked reading Arkade’s counterpoints.
I’d take this kind of discourse any day over the usual disagreements!
I don’t want to put my hand in the ring between those two, but I would like to add my own little slice,
When Arkade mentions us BM akin to Pokemon trainers, my only argument is that while we have options to be like that, they’re not viable atm. Simple talents that buff a pet or the hunter are better than stampede or MoC, making their choices entirely situational, at best, in my opinion.
I would love to see BM be that Pokemon style where we can call on more than one or two pets and it be more of our rotation than currently. (Kinda how Demo behaves)
I would love to see AC become baseline the way LW is for MM. I would love to see waaaaay more emphasis on BM actually controlling two pets at once. (Like Rexxar )
I’m no where near the vet Hunter these two are. But that’s just how I feel from my time playing one.
IDK i kinda think people hitting 87 targets was a bit silly personally, it gave certain classes for more viability that others in some content. AS long as they cap everybody, fine… it is what it is.
Plus we dont know what the content is going to end up looking like to im assuming there is a reason they are capping AoE in general
)