Shadowlands has strong Horde Potential

I can appreciate the positive outlook of the OP. And he is right that there is potential for some good Horde moments. But whether Blizzard chooses to expand on them, or ignores them, is something we can only guess at while we “wait and see.”

Legion had potential for a Horde story, but it was pretty empty. Sylvanas’s jaunt through Stormheim is the crux of the Horde story, it is but a footnote that most players completed before level cap, and it is a Horde failure, as they are stopped by the Alliance. Aethas’s muffin being stolen on Argus was about it after that. They even have a small monument to Broxigar - but it is just there. Saurfang or Thura should have visited it, or something.

BfA… had alot of potential to tell the tale of two sides and extremism. What did it end up? Sylvanas using the Horde and being stopped by the Alliance. But not just one zone, like Stormheim in Legion - the whole expac!

So idk. I have lost any positivity about a Horde story. I am looking forward to exploring the Shadowlands as a loosely affiliated Horde agent more concerned with my own knowledge and power.

I mean, Draka, Kaelthas, and Sylvanas are the closest thing to Horde related Characters. 2 of them used the Horde and split, and the other was dead before WC 3 even.

I am looking forward to new stuff to experience and learn and do. But I almost hope the Horde is ignored for an expac. We are either ignored or evil losers, and I think I could go for another expac of being ignored, instead.

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Given that the thread is about Shadowlands and that the faction conflict is being shelved for now, though, is the motivation you’re looking at rather more in the past tense than the present? Not expected to attack the Alliance in Shadowlands, why would the Horde need motivation to hate the Alliance in Shadowlands? Wouldn’t the Horde’s motivation in Shadowlands be the same as the Alliance’s? That is, to save Azeroth from being swallowed into the Maw?

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While I personally don’t want the Cenarion Circle to kick out Horde-race druids for this reason, I do/did want to see some of this sentiment bubbling under the surface to give more texture to the world (and the neutral factions).

The Burning was a traumatic event, and I think it would be a very human (heh) reaction for someone even in a neutral organization to try to get their opposite faction counterparts to condemn such an action. And I can see a Horde druid defending his alignment, with much the same reasons that many Horde posters have used: I wasn’t there, I didn’t agree with this action and wouldn’t have followed it, I don’t know what Sylvanas was smoking when she ordered it, but I am not going to abandon all of my brothers and sisters who I’m certain are not genocidal monsters. The two sides can argue, maybe there’s a few explicit ex-CC druids throwing their lot fully into their player factions, but the majority continue their healing duties together.

I think disagreements or flavor text like this would be really good for the neutral factions, because it would really establish that they are in fact part of the overall world, and show their dedication to their neutral faction’s cause to stick with it even as such things are going on.

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I think that seeing Tholo and Anren together still in Mount Hyjal during the Heart of Azeroth quest chain shows how tight-knit Alliance and Horde Druids are.

The kind of nuance you were talking about also has been shown before, but it showed the opposite, that even during Garrosh’s war Cenarion Circle members knew the good in each other even over the faction divide.

Excerpts from Quest for Pandaria - Part 4 set after Cataclysm and just before Tides of War:
    "I'm Li Li Stormstout. Who are you?"

    My name is Lintharel," said the night elf. “I am a druid, and a kaldorei in service of the Alliance.”

    The cabin door opened, and a grizzled human man stepped into the room, followed by another night elf woman. She looked almost identical to Lintharel, right down to the raindrop-shaped violet tattoos across her face. They were clearly sisters.

    “I’m Marco Heller, the captain of this ship,” the man declared as soon as he had crossed the threshold. “I have some questions for you.”

    “Already?” Lintharel said, brows creasing. “I thought you just wanted to know when she was awake. She is still injured!”

    “Why don’t you step out and fetch some more bandages, then?” Captain Heller asked, though his tone conveyed the request as an order. “You may accompany her if you like, Atropa.”

    “I am not going anywhere,” Atropa replied, crossing her arms. Lintharel threw a frustrated glance at the captain before leaving.


    “I worked side by side with many members of the Horde in Mount Hyjal,” Lintharel said quietly. “Archdruid Hamuul Runetotem is a tauren, and one of the greatest leaders of the Cenarion Circle. You cannot judge an entire people by the actions of a few.”

    Baenan shook his head. “Lass, I wish I could agree with ye. Th’ Cenarion Circle druids can be an exception, as can th’ shaman o’ th’ Earthen Ring. But look at yerself: ye came back from Hyjal an’ returned tae servin’ th’ Alliance. Yer Horde friends have done th’ same. They’re yer enemies now, and ye are theirs.”

    Lintharel’s hands tightened around her cards. “I serve the Alliance because it is High Priestess Tyrande and Archdruid Malfurion’s will, and I am loyal to them.” She frowned. “But the divisions between the Horde and Alliance are false ones.”

    “False divisions enforced with real guns an’ blades!” Baenan snorted. “Warchief Hellscream wants nae peace. Look at yer own home in Ashenvale! He’s a menace, an’ yer druid friends are complicit in his reign.” He slapped his cards down on the table; he was the winner this round. “Ain’t nothin’ an’ no one trustworthy in th’ Horde, an’ ye need tae accept that.”


    “You’re certain you wish to risk it?” Aldrek evaluated his volunteer diplomat, none other than the druid Nita.

    “I’ve worked with members of the Alliance as part of the Cenarion Circle,” Nita replied. “That history will put them at ease.”

    Aldrek rubbed his chin thoughtfully. “Fine. Can you row yourself over?”

    Nita could have taken the shape of a bird and flown herself over, but the Alliance was sending a boat, so it was better to reciprocate in kind.

    “Yes,” she answered.


    “Welcome aboard!” Captain Heller stated enthusiastically, extending his hand. Nita shook it warmly, and the gathered sailors inclined their heads in acknowledgement.

    “Thank you, Captain,” she replied. “I hope that we can reach a mutually satisfying agreement.”


    Nita faced Captain Heller in his quarters. Several naval officers, their hands clasped formally behind their backs, flanked the negotiators.

    “Captain,” she began, “I’d like to offer a full explanation of our ship’s movements—”

    “Nita,” Heller interrupted her, “I’m not interested in the how or why of the Horde’s movements. I just want your people to get out.”

    “These waters are neutral,” she countered. “We have as much right to be here as you do.”

    “That may be true,” Heller continued, unmoved, “but you pose a threat. I will not be satisfied that the threat is contained until your ship is back in Durotar, where it belongs.”

    “I can relay that to my captain, if you wish,” Nita said tentatively.

    “No, I think we will communicate with him directly,” said Heller. “You will stay here as collateral to make sure our message is properly heard.”

    Nita’s mouth dropped open. “What? You are holding me prisoner?”

    “I do what I must,” Captain Heller said. “Seize her.”

    Four officers grabbed her arms. “This is outrageous!” she cried as she struggled against her captors. “I am a druid of the Cenarion Circle! I have worked alongside Malfurion Stormrage himself!”

    “How nice,” Captain Heller replied. “If I ever meet him, I shall be sure to tell him that I know you.”


    Nita’s great hands were bound behind her. The guards’ solemn expressions indicated a failure to come to terms.

    Captain Heller brandished his sword.

    “This creature,” he announced, pointing to Nita with the blade, “attacked me and my officers the moment we were isolated from the rest of the crew! We subdued her, and now she must be dealt with!”

    “You lie! I did nothing of the sort!” Nita countered angrily, earning herself a backhand from one of the taller officers.

    “Silence, Horde scum!” Heller ordered.

    A series of sharp bangs and flashes interrupted the captain. Magic streaked from the deck of the Horde ship, the runes brightly illuminating the darkening sky.

    A cry rose from one of the magi. “They’re demanding surrender, or Baenan dies!”

    Heller let out a snarl of fury and cursed. “We will never surrender!” he yelled, as if the Warchief’s Fist could actually hear him.

    Trialin covered her mouth with her hands, suppressing a sob. Li Li put her arm around the dwarf’s shoulders.

    Heller faced Nita. “You.” He signaled to his men, who shoved the tauren forward. “If Baenan’s life is forfeit, then so is yours. Blood for blood.” He raised his sword.

    Seeming to appear out of nowhere, Lintharel stepped between Nita and the captain, spreading her arms wide.

    “No,” the night elf said.

    Captain Heller’s face twisted in anger. He did not lower his sword.

    “Lintharel?” Nita said softly. Li Li cocked her head to the side. How did this tauren know Lintharel’s name?

    “Get out of the way, night elf,” Captain Heller said.

    “At Mount Hyjal I fought by Nita’s side,” Lintharel declared. “I have known few comrades more honorable or courageous. She has done nothing wrong. Let her go.”

    “Her people have taken Baenan prisoner,” Heller said through gritted teeth.

    “As you have done to her,” Lintharel pointed out. “If the Horde intended to hold Baenan from the start, then they are willing to sacrifice her. They had to have known how you would react to their ultimatum. She is as much a victim as Baenan.”

    “Stand down, night elf! That is an order!”

    “Or did you also intend to detain the Horde messenger,” Lintharel continued, lifting her chin, “equally condemning Baenan to death?”

    “Shut your mouth!” Heller roared. The tip of his sword quivered inches from her throat. “You owe the Alliance a debt of service. To disobey me is treason.”

    “To betray a friend is an equal sin,” she said. “To which do I owe the greater debt, Captain: a political allegiance, or a personal one?”

    The question lingered like the note of a gong. Li Li’s heart was in her mouth. The entire crew watched, still as death. No one even dared to breathe. Every sound was magnified: the waves slapping the wooden hull, the rigging jostling in a gust of wind. The gathering clouds had thickened, tingeing the dusk an eerie green.

    All the fur on Li Li’s neck and arms stood straight on end. The very air was charged, tensed to some intangible limit.

    And Li Li understood.

    Lintharel, standing between Nita and those who would harm her, was not as vulnerable as she seemed. She had been stalling, buying time.

    Casting a spell.

    The first of the raindrops fell from the sky.

    “Lintharel,” Captain Heller said in a voice deathly calm, “this is your last warning.”

    Li Li grabbed Trialin’s wrist and took a step backward, away from the crowd. The dwarf, sensing Li Li’s urgency, followed her lead and did not make a sound.

    “I will not stand down,” Lintharel said. Above her, the sky rumbled.

    “So be it! Kill—”

    The last half of Heller’s command was lost in a roar of wind gusting ferociously from behind Lintharel, sending everyone who faced her stumbling backward. In the same instant a bolt of lightning seared the sky, hitting the Elwynn’s main mast like a bomb, igniting the topsail in fireworks of sparks. Splinters of wood the size of daggers rained upon the deck. Li Li and Trialin dove behind a secured crate, the night illuminated in flames.

    Lintharel stepped into the now-cleared space before her, open arms no longer a gesture of sacrifice, but of power. Her eyes glowed like stars, white as the summoned lightning. The impossible wind swirled around her, tossing her hair, pulling at her leather kilt, but she was otherwise impervious to it. Li Li watched in awe. Lintharel looked like a goddess.

    “Free her,” she commanded a sailor cowering on the deck. He nodded, eyes wide with fear, and began to crawl toward Nita.

    Another explosion rocked the entire ship. Everyone stumbled. Somewhere, people were screaming, calling for water, for healers.

    The Warchief’s Fist had opened fire.

    All descended into chaos. Rain poured from the clouds. Some of the crew lunged to attack Lintharel and Nita, while others rushed to defend the ship. Above it all Captain Heller shouted orders, desperately attempting to regain control.

    A volley of cannon shot replied to the Horde ship’s blast, a few of the balls striking home. Li Li leaped from behind her hiding place, eyes fixed on the small crowd that battled the night elf and the tauren.

    “Where are ye goin’?” Trialin called out.

    “What they did to Nita is wrong,” Li Li said defiantly. “I’m going to help her and Lintharel.”

    Li Li had feared that Trialin’s rage for her brother would make her side with the other crew, but to her relief, the dwarf nodded.

    “Aye,” she said. “It’s th’ height o’ cowardice tae attack a diplomat.” She pulled a shortsword from her belt and tossed it to Li Li. “Ye’ll need a weapon.”

    “Thanks,” Li Li said. With a cry, the two threw themselves into the fray.

    The fire had spread to the Elwynn’s mainsail, the rain doing little to thwart it. A handful of sailors frantically worked a bucket brigade to contain the blaze, but their effort was futile. Eventually the entire ship would go up in flames.

    “Nita,” Lintharel cried, “you need to get out of here! Take one of your forms and escape!”

    “You saved my life,” the tauren replied. “I will not let you fight alone.”

    “She’s not alone!” Li Li shouted, wedging herself between the two druids.

    “Aye, we’re here tae help ye!” Trialin called, expertly swinging two axes. Lintharel hurled bolts of yellow magic; Li Li parried sailors’ weapons. The dwarf, night elf, and pandaren pushed their attackers aggressively, clearing a small space.

    “Now’s your chance!” Li Li yelled to Nita.

    “I am forever in your debt!” Nita called back. In a single massive stride, she broke the line of sailors and hurled herself overboard. Moments later, a sleek sea lion disappeared beneath the waves.

    Li Li’s breath heaved. She gripped her sword tightly, standing shoulder to shoulder with Lintharel and Trialin. Rain pounded against her face and neck. Now that Nita was free, they too had to escape.

    Trialin lifted an axe, nodding to the other two. One, she mouthed. Two—

    A massive explosion rattled the Elwynn from bowsprit to stern. The ship shuddered violently, wooden hull groaning with the force of the blast. Every single person was thrown to the deck. A plume of black smoke ballooned into the air, while globs of burning pitch fell from the sky, adding to the flames that already burned in the sails.

    “By Elune and Ysera!” Lintharel cursed. Li Li rolled to one side, trying to see what had happened. Smoke poured from a gaping hole in the Warchief’s Fist, where the explosion had taken place.

    “Baenan,” Trialin whispered next to Li Li. “Oh, Light, please let him be alive…”

    Lintharel was the first to her feet, offering her hand to Li Li. Li Li reached out to take it, and caught a blur of movement from the corner of her eye. Captain Heller had snuck behind Lintharel, his sword drawn.

    “Look out!” Li Li cried, but the warning came too late. Lintharel’s body arched, her eyes widening with shock and pain, as the captain ran her clean through.

    Lintharel hiccoughed, the corners of her mouth reddening with blood. Her knees cracked against the wooden deck as she fell onto them and slumped over, gasping.

    Heller withdrew his sword, the red on its silver blade already running in the downpour.

    “The penalty for treason is death,” he said quietly, and he raised his weapon to deal the final blow.

    A shadow moved alongside him, unfolding into shape, and a curved, embossed blade pressed against Heller’s throat.

    His face bloated with rage. “Traitors!”

    “Shut up.” Atropa’s eyes blazed murderously, twins of Lintharel’s. “The penalty for harming my family is also death.”


    As he pulled alongside the Alliance ship, a figure plummeted from the deck and crashed into the water, barely missing the small boat.

    “That was Captain Heller!” Baenan exclaimed.

    Chen eyed the body, which bobbed for a few moments before sinking beneath the waves. “His throat was cut.”


    The rose-gold dawn illuminated only flotsam floating in the waves where the two ships had gone down. There was no one to see it; the survivors’ lifeboats had all dispersed.

    One small craft held four passengers, three of whom were crowded into the bow and stern to make room for the fourth, draped at the bottom.

    “I’ve done everything I can,” Baenan said miserably, shaking his head. Exhaustion made his face sag. “But I’m at me limit. I’m sorry.”

    Trialin put her hand on her brother’s arm.

    Atropa cradled Lintharel’s head in her lap, stroking strands of hair behind the druid’s long ears. She bowed her forehead to Lintharel’s, tears sliding silently down her face.

    Lintharel’s eyes were closed, but she smiled weakly. She didn’t speak, just squeezed Atropa’s hand. All were silent, knowing it was only a matter of time.

    None of them noticed the dark speck on the horizon, growing steadily larger as it approached, until a sharp cry startled them. A great brown bird circled above, its wingspan nearly as long as the lifeboat. It swooped down, alighting deftly on the wooden rim. With a glance around, it transformed.

    It was Nita.

    The tauren knelt beside Lintharel, careful not to upset the balance of the lifeboat. She spread her fingers over the night elf’s midsection, covering the wound. A green glow bloomed from her palms, wreathing Lintharel in light.

    Lintharel inhaled violently, gasping and coughing, and attempted to sit up. Both Atropa and Nita gently restrained her.

    “Peace, my friend,” the tauren said. “You will be well soon enough; there is no rush.”

    Lintharel reached out to take Nita’s hand. “Thank you.”

    Atropa gripped Nita’s broad forearm. Tears still gleamed in the night elf’s eyes. “And I, too, thank you, so very much.”

    “It was the least I could do,” Nita answered. “I have been scouring the ocean all night. There are many survivors, both Alliance and Horde. I will do my best to guide everyone to land.”

    “Once I have regained my strength, I will help,” Lintharel said. She gave Atropa a reassuring smile. “It will not take long.”

    Before she left, Nita cast minor spells on Baenan, Trialin, and Atropa as well. Baenan sighed happily as the pain from his bruises melted away.

    “Thank ye, Nita o’ th’ tauren,” he said. He rubbed his chest, noting how it no longer ached at the touch.


    “Head north and west,” Nita said. “You’re not far from Tanaris. I will return as soon as possible to aid you, if you need it. May the Earth Mother be with you all.”

    “And Elune with you,” Atropa replied.

    Nita spread her arms and became a bird, wheeling into the sky.

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That doesn’t stick when they don’t do anything while their own faction goes off committing all sorts of atrocoties. The Horde went straight for the head of the Cenarion Circle. Being in both is sorta incompatible right now. Or should be.

See the short story I cited. It was set after Mount Hyjal and the Molten Front, when Cenarion Circle members were recruited back to the Alliance or Horde during Garrosh’s invasion of Night Elf lands. Even then, Night Elf members did not forget their time with Tauren members in saving the world, even while the Horde was killing their people and trying to take their homes.

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Yeah, but this time the Horde succeeded and went further.

The Frostwolves quit the Horde over much less. How can a CC druid justify sticking with “brothers and sisters” that blighted Darkshore and burned down Teldrassil, and didn’t stop there? Why should Malfurion keep them around if they’re going to remain part of the group that massacred his people?

The Druids of the Flame considered the Horde to have been quite successful during Garrosh’s campaign.

And I just covered how Cenarion Circle members would see things: By knowing their fellow members as people, not a black and white (or red and blue) oversimplifications.

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As much as Blizzard seems to forget it too, the Horde isn’t solely comprised of its army.

A tauren druid would probably be thinking of his friends still living and working in Thunder Bluff. The leatherworkers in Orgrimmar, the mushroom farmers in Tirisfal, the hawkstrider merchants in Eversong - abandoning the Horde would mean abandoning all of them, too, not just Sylvanas and those who followed her.

And the switch to invading Ashenvale was a surprise to the army. Plenty of Horde could have been marching with the army to go defend goblin miners in Silithus, to show the Alliance that they won’t roll over and let them have full control of a world-changing resource - and then yoink off to night elf lands instead!

Unfortunately, Blizzard hasn’t spent a lot of story time on any of those viewpoints, instead showing the cheering response to invading the night elves, the shaman fanning the flames to burn Teldrassil, and so on. But ideally, in a wide world like WoW is supposed to be, those other views should get focus, too.

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Yeah, people that’d stick with the genocidal maniacs that destroyed huge swaths of nature and almost murdered their leader.

If we didn’t have an example of members of the Horde quitting over unethical actions, maybe this would work. But the Frostwolves are still a thing.

They were very clear until that Sylvanas somehow had the support of the people until the very end, so I dunno what to tell you, besides that Cenarion Druids should not be friends with people who cheered on the Night Elf genocide.

And the Frostwolves are still Horde members. They merely didn’t support Sylvanas during Garrosh’s reign.

Besides Belmont and Nathanos, no characters in game cheered for the burning of Teldrassil.

Have they given the Horde any support since?

I don’t feel the soldiers spearing civillians at Brennadam, dropping blight bombs on Arom’s Stand or setting Boralus on fire were particularly opppsed to it

I’m pretty sure the Shatterspear are also like, partying at Darkshore.

The thread is about Shadowlands, sure. But I think this thread itself has made abundantly clear that the grievances of BfA and before have not been addressed at all, and are not going to simply disappear just because the expansion has changed.

I know this isn’t actually the question you asked, but allow me to explain my position on this and other matters, and perhaps it will shed some light on the reasoning for my responses here and in other threads. I am fairly sure that Pyrogar (and probably others) have me pegged as a Sylvanas loyalist, but this is not actually correct. So then, what is it that I am looking for?

Put simply: I want a Horde that is capable of pulling its own weight in the narrative, and to be a faction that I can feel justified in fighting for.

My original reaction to the Stormheim scenario was thus. I was a little grumbly that it seemed the Alliance came out on top, but I knew you can’t win every clash. The Horde had given a good account of itself in the fleet action, inflicted some damage on the alliance, and though they came away losers in the end, it was the kind of conflict I could treat like a sporting event: “We lost, but we’ll get 'em next time.” I wasn’t thinking “Oh no! Sylvanas is up to super shady stuff!” but rather “Sylvanas is trying something to bolster the Forsaken, and since the Forsaken are on our side, I’m down for that.” As we move forward, I’ll ask that please, nobody take this quote out of context and start arguing something different, and please take the whole of my argument together.

So, we move forward into BfA, and during the BfA beta I started to get a sinking feeling. The actions of the Horde as they were being written were rather… less justifiable. Almost outright villainry. Every reveal brought more and more senselessness to the war. Then the War of Thorns, and I felt terrible. I could feel Saurfang’s dismay at the Burning. I was dumbfounded that Blizzard would take an interesting character in Sylvanas and reduce her to a hissy fit.

But Jellex, you might say, wouldn’t you then want Sylvanas removed so you could feel good about the Horde?

I knew that if Sylvanas were going to be removed, it would cause a civil war. And above all else, a civil war would result in the one thing I dreaded above all: a weak, ineffective Horde. A Horde unable to muster its strength against the opposing side because it was too busy fighting. And I was utterly dismayed by how many people were willing to dance to Blizzard’s tune and divide the Horde against itself. Inciting unrest in your opponent is one of the oldest tricks in the book - seeing Saurfang reduced to a real-life Lenin hurt too much to bear, because I could see what was to come. Blizzard was undercutting the Horde like crazy, and after a confusing start to the War Campaign that at least had some potential, 8.1 happened, and it was awful. Losing everywhere. Non-stop reverses. A feeling of helplessness as the faction crumbled to dust, displayed as witless fools, weak and divided, unable to win against the superior might of their united foe. Unable to win without atrocity. The cartoon cardboard villains of a children’s TV show.

Motivation was already in terribly short supply, and then Blizzard started to grind away at what little was left. The retcons and “clarifications” to the past undermined everything all the way back to WoD. Blizzard was rewriting history to place a villain as Warchief, guaranteeing that they were going to have her removed - but then also doing it in such a way as to sunder Horde unity almost completely. They have endeavored to drive a wedge in the Horde playerbase, and it kills me to see people buying into it. We are divided, squabbling among ourselves, as Blizzard gleefully writes out any justification we ever had. Already we have had to stretch so far to come up with even threadbare scraps of motivation - and to see purportedly Horde players side with Blizzard and the Alliance in this undercutting hurts.

I will never get on board with any motivation that involves hunting Sylvanas down because I can only ever see her as a symbol of what Blizzard did to the Horde. How they have all but ruined the faction to drive a terrible story, and are now trying to half-a$$ reasons why we should be united in hunting her down. I do not buy it, because all I can see is the disunity, the weakness. All I see is their willingness to strip the Horde character roster almost to the bone - to discard Sylvanas and Nathanos, to strip Thrall of his power, to kill Saurfang.

All I see is how they have portrayed the Horde as weak, its characters as inferior and its players as deserving of shame. All I see is how they divided us.

All I see is a ruin, and I have no hope they will fix it.

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Ironically Drek’Thar was present when Sylvanas recognized Horde players for their actions against the Alliance during Legion.

Luckily there are no Shatterspear Cenarion Circle members or any Horde Cenarion Circle members that are looking to join the Shatterspear.

Your example of Brennadam, while obviously horrible in its own right, is still not evidence of anyone cheering for the burning of Teldrassil.

Cheering at Teldrassil is like, a metaphor for supporting this war. Do 't take it too literally.

But in the end Saurfang prevented the deaths that would have actually come with a civil war. The Horde was only weakened by the war itself, but all those blows came while the Horde was still united under Sylvanas (or from Sylvanas herself in the case of Nazjatar). The Alliance never actually hit the Horde in any way after the Horde fractured, thanks to Saurfang’s last actions.

The Horde currently does have the strength to stand on its own. If anything, because Sylvanas simply left them and expected N’Zoth to mop them up, but we already know that plan of hers fails, too.

Unfortunately what you said about Sylvanas going into the Shadowlands is still going to be true, and I don’t have any arguments to try to approach your feelings on that. But Sylvanas is the left over grievance not addressed by BfA. At best, I would suggest hoping they rip the bandaid off quickly and kill her off like they did Garrosh early in the expansion, as she’ll remain a narrative black hole that will keep reminding you of everything you dislike until she is gone.

It’s not an apt metaphor, because the Tauran and others were not supporting the Horde still because they thought the burning of Teldrassil was a wonderful thing, but because it was such a horrible thing that they could not imagine the Alliance wouldn’t come for them all after and they just wanted to defend themselves (somehow not knowing that Anduin is far more forgiving than that and the Night Elves just want their lands back, Sylvanas’ head, and to be left alone, not to invade the Horde back).

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None of what you said, however, makes the Horde any less weak.

I didn’t say they don’t have the strength to stand on their own - they always will, because they will have to for the sake of the way the game is put together. They are not an equal faction to the Alliance as it stands, and after the events of BfA, they probably never will be.

The Horde was weakened by internal dissent (you are correct in that it was not a civil war per se) AND it was weakened by losing a string of battles all in a row. These things are not mutually exclusive; it lost while “united”, a term I use loosely, and then it was weakened further by the internal dissent plot. If they could not win while united, how the heck are they going to win while so badly divided? Yes, Blizzard will handwave whatever necessary strength to keep the story going, but it doesn’t take a Ph.D to see that the Horde’s position a precarious one, to be extremely generous.

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But that brings me back to the spirit of my original question to you: Why are you concerned about this for now in Shadowlands? There is no need to be compared to the Alliance if the Horde is not attacking the Alliance.

Because the events of BfA mean that the Horde is weak, divided, and still with the pall of atrocity hanging over them, something which Blizzard will never be able to make go away. It doesn’t matter now if the conflict isn’t front and center - I know that the red faction is weak and irrelevant.

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