Seraphim removal?

[Hospitaller-stormrage]

The APL that simcraft uses fires it on cd.

[Ansefs-thrall]

Idk maybe simcraft is right, but the way I remember it is its a 1min cd. It is basically a second set of wings and it is much stronger if you use it during a FR DT ES or w/e you run window w/ wings up. This is basically part of the whole paragraph blizz wrote about cooldown stacking, because stacking CDs is always better than using them separately.

[Arahgon-maiev]

thats a gross lie

@Ansefs-thrall

ut the way I remember it is its a 1min cd. It is basically a second set of wings and it is much stronger if you use it during a FR DT ES or w/e you run window w/ wings up. This is basically part of the whole paragraph blizz wrote about cooldown stacking, because stacking CDs is always better than using them separately.

thats how you always done it. also i just chedk the raidbot apl including my own quick sim. it uses seraphim in conjugation with the fr and dt

[Látias-dalaran]

Why are you defending seraphim? Its a stupid ability that contributes to rets button bloat. Getting rid of it was one of the smartest things blizz did for ret

[Arahgon-maiev]

because seraphim was essential to the 1min build and made it work. removing it helped with rets cd stacking “issue” it def wasnt the solution to rets button bloat. simply because consecration is staying and seraphim was replaced by execution scentence. wow much buttonbloat fixing. sure love replacing one button for another button thats more frequent

[Benmarch-zuljin]

@Kaivax

Button bloat: Retribution Paladins currently have a fairly large number of abilities, and some of these feel unnecessary and inefficient. We’re working to tone this down and have a more focused set of abilities and cooldowns.

Stacking modifiers: There are currently several talents and abilities that provide stacking bonuses, which can make for a confusing and messy playstyle that deals extreme burst damage, but in return leaves your core abilities feeling unsatisfying and under-tuned.[…]

@Kaivax

Seraphim has been removed from the Paladin talent tree. In our previous notes, we mentioned stacking auras and having an excessive amount of buttons to press. Seraphim is a fairly large factor in both, and we feel it is better to take the throughput provided by this cooldown and build it into your core abilities.

It’s pretty self-explanatory.
I don’t know what other explanation you could want.

@Blayser-moon-guard

Seal of Order, Dusk and Dawn, Seal of Might and Seal of the Crusader is ridiculous.

Those are not buttons, they are not contributing to button bloat.
They do partly qualify as modifiers I guess but not nearly to the same extend that Seraphim was.
Overall good change.

@Arahgon-maiev

simply because consecration is staying and seraphim was replaced by execution scentence. wow much buttonbloat fixing

We haven’t seen the tree yet, so right now obviously the spot for DT in the Ret tree on the PTR is useless so people make build with ES.
Giving the impression they just replaced it.
In reality, ES could have been in our abilities right now on top of Seraphim too.
The only thing that prevented this was tuning…

There are some nuance to bring to this to, ES feels WAY better to use now that it doesn’t cost HP. It feels way better to build to 5, ES and start spending right away.
You don’t feel like you’re starting from behind now.

Another thing to keep in mind is that other datamined information seems to suggest Crusader strike could become our Auto-Attack, effectively removing yet another button from our bars.

I’ve never really used ES personally even if I think the ability is thematically cool.
Always just found it a bit frustrating to use previously and the payout to be lacking for investing so much effort into doing it right.

[Zinj-sisters-of-elune (Zinj)]

@Jlee-alleria

@Mediumrarex-stormrage

However I am very sad to see that get removed while Dusk/Dawn still remains

Sometimes they take away things some of us like. If the team delivers on a meaningful rework and Ret is more rewarding I think most players that liked the ability will forgive the loss of Seraphim. Doesn’t mean we wont hear the voices of discontent on these forums.

I saw the back and forth in the other thread I don’t think I’ll change any ones mind. I just hope it’s a positive rework overall, I think if they deliver it will be a win even for those of us that would have kept it.

I already assumed it would be gone after reading the initial statement regarding the Ret rework and modifiers. I don’t have an issue with the removal, but I get the frustration from those that wanted to keep it. Won’t be pleasing everyone, at some point I may be unhappy about a change.

Just waiting to see the rough draft before I get worked up.

I appreciate your nuances and realistic take on this.

There is no way to please everyone, all the time.

[Zevn-area-52]

If seraphim is getting removed, at least bring it back as a replacement for Avenging wrath: Might as a wings tie in. Seraphim has so much flavor and you actually feel stronger when its active. You don’t feel the 20% crit chance at all for any paladin spec except for caster holy paladin who would still prefer seraphim. It would actually be a hard choice for ret and Prot picking between seraphim and crusade/sentinel and both talents would see play.

[Tanais-kilrogg]

@Ðjeeta-sargeras

It’s an ability that doesn’t feel good to press, particularly because its a “spender” that uses three holy power that aren’t being instead used for arguably more important spells.

If there were arguably more important spells, it wouldn’t be optimal to press Seraphim over those alternatives…

I do think Seraphim brings the amount of stacking Ret could do to an unhealthy place, as that much burst makes it so we can only really be kept in check in PvP by allowing people to just bail out of our uptime entirely once the first sign of impending doom pops and in turn makes it hard to balance even the burst-favoring environments of M+ against the more sustained ones of raid (or adds-burst fights vs. more patchwork fights), so I won’t be terribly sorry to see it go. I just feel like a lot of the warrants for its removal are a bit out of whack.

@Ðjeeta-sargeras

I feel like this is a welcome change, seeing as Judgement was basically a poor man’s Colossus Smash, with none of the benefits.

It hasn’t been anything like a CS since Legion, though?

@Mürlin-illidan

You still can proc it with Ashes to Ashes so its not completely gone

Feels like that might be a worst of both worlds. If it remains about as important a prep skill as before but now depends on RNG… Ehhhh.

@Haavi-barthilas

That should be what these new talent designs are for, the start of tree should be spec defining core talents, the middle should be somewhat generic but broadly style defining talents (AoE vs ST, specific ability focus like Judgment etc), and then the deep talents and capstones should be playstle defining like the 1 min build a more generic sustained spec etc.

This. 100%. Would be nice to just… let us choose. Get the necessary iconics in there early on, and then let us tailor it ourselves thereafter.

[Puding-cenarius]

seraphim is the core mechanic of my build, crit caster heal, now no more 45% crit heals. F!@!

[Ðjeeta-sargeras]

Funny you say that, because Icyveins clearly states you use it as often as possible, only delaying it if Avenging is about to come off CD. Icyveins says nothing about saving Seraphim for Divine Toll or Final Reckoning. Indeed, Icyveins only mentions the Divine Toll and Execution Sentence interaction.

So I mean… who’s right? The class guide writer or some dude on the forums?

[Arahgon-maiev]

“You should always slightly delay Seraphim to later align it with your other throughput cooldowns.” ~icyveins rotation page with seraphin, fr, dt selected

so do like you like to lie on the forums or do you lack reading comprehension? pick one.

[Hospitaller-stormrage]

@Iliketurles-aggramar

Also im really confused why people hate dusk of dawn so much…it really isnt difficult to keep up time on it as long as your playing the class right and building and spending holy power correctly. It gives us a passive DR and dmg buff also so taking it away would make pallys even more squishy.

It’s because it breaks the design purpose behind giving us 5 HP. Paladin started with 3 HP and it was a consistent build 3, then spend. People complained the rotation was boring and wanted procs to respond to. Instead of procs for free casting, they gave us procs for free HP. They also gave us 2 HP on some builders. But, unlike other combo point classes, our builders are also on cds.

The cardinal sin of combo points is overcapping. Once BoJ gave 2 HP, then you can only use it at 0 or 1 HP. So if you’re at 2 HP, and only BoJ is off cd, optimal play is to wait for a 1 HP builder to come off cd. That feels really bad. The solution was to increase the cap to 5. This allows us to use BoJ at 0, 1, 2 or 3 HP and “fixed” the problem and also made it less punishing to proc free HP.

Making a mechanic to encourage capping HP again breaks everything about 2 HP builders on a cd and proccing free HP causing wasted HP. It feels bad.

[Hospitaller-stormrage]

I recently went to the class discord about the same conflicts. They say to hold Seraphim and pair it with Final Reckoning.

[Brunalima-azgalor]

Maybe its not the most common opinion, but duiring PTR test every 10.0.7 build, not having seraphim improved and smoothed HP generation and finisher use. Ive been enjoying WoA instead of Radiant Decree and ES cooldown reduction and HP cost elimination. In single target, HoW and Judgment can do enough damage that even if you did over cap on HP from pressing them a GCD early, its not a massive detriment to overall damage. The talent options provide quick building of spending with less GCDs spent on making abilities do more damage so you can instead, just do great damage. Being able to “go ham” right at the start of combat feels much better than waiting for Dawn from 5 HP, and Seraphim to be casted. I brefly listened to buffs recived late at some point on 3/20/2023. Havent found the blue post myself yet but it all sounds good. I will say the list of improvements for 10.0.7 Retribution compared to 10.0.5 is a long one and Im a happy customer.

[Fernous-bleeding-hollow]

Yeah I would rather have seraphim that is on demand versus dusk and dawn , I really wish wow would do away with weak auras all together so they don’t feel like they have to add abilities like dusk and dawn that make you have to watch weak auras for it

[Christtel-stormrage]

You dont need auras for d&d. You can just 123 on your mind and dusk comes after you spend the hp. You dont even have to look at it ever. You could go 1to6 if you wanted the two stacks but its pretty clear that going for 2 stacks is discouraged and a waste. At least after the first one it is.

On the other hand we kind of need for divine arbiter… inf you wanna couple that hit with something else like ire but then blizzard could add a visual cue for arbiter. Back in wod ret had 2 visual effects one for art of war one for the free ds proc. They could do that with arbiter and problem solved.

[Fernous-bleeding-hollow]

Yeah your right in pve but for pvp you want to stack as much damage in a window as you can do, following stacking buffs and maxing them in that window is preferred. Maybe I’m not sure on exactly how d and d works in the new rework so we will see, I’d really just prefer to get rid of weak auras or the need for weakauras in general.

[Christtel-stormrage]

Since you dont know how it works Ill tell you.

Whenever you use 3 hp generators (no matter order, could be the same 3 times) you get dawn (increases the damage and healing of next spender by 10%+10% if talented). After consuming dawn, you get dusk (5% damage reduction for x seconds). You can use 6 generators without using a spender and dawn will stack to 2 buffing your next spender. So far, stacking to 2 is very discouraged, will make you waste hp.

So as I said, its no longer a mainteance buff. You actually control it and I personally find it very easy to track without addons.

[Floweret-stormreaver]

Serphim is trash bring back inquisition!