Seraphim removal?

The APL that simcraft uses fires it on cd.

Idk maybe simcraft is right, but the way I remember it is its a 1min cd. It is basically a second set of wings and it is much stronger if you use it during a FR DT ES or w/e you run window w/ wings up. This is basically part of the whole paragraph blizz wrote about cooldown stacking, because stacking CDs is always better than using them separately.

thats a gross lie

thats how you always done it. also i just chedk the raidbot apl including my own quick sim. it uses seraphim in conjugation with the fr and dt

Why are you defending seraphim? Its a stupid ability that contributes to rets button bloat. Getting rid of it was one of the smartest things blizz did for ret


because seraphim was essential to the 1min build and made it work. removing it helped with rets cd stacking “issue” it def wasnt the solution to rets button bloat. simply because consecration is staying and seraphim was replaced by execution scentence. wow much buttonbloat fixing. sure love replacing one button for another button thats more frequent

It’s pretty self-explanatory.
I don’t know what other explanation you could want.

Those are not buttons, they are not contributing to button bloat.
They do partly qualify as modifiers I guess but not nearly to the same extend that Seraphim was.
Overall good change.

We haven’t seen the tree yet, so right now obviously the spot for DT in the Ret tree on the PTR is useless so people make build with ES.
Giving the impression they just replaced it.
In reality, ES could have been in our abilities right now on top of Seraphim too.
The only thing that prevented this was tuning…

There are some nuance to bring to this to, ES feels WAY better to use now that it doesn’t cost HP. It feels way better to build to 5, ES and start spending right away.
You don’t feel like you’re starting from behind now.

Another thing to keep in mind is that other datamined information seems to suggest Crusader strike could become our Auto-Attack, effectively removing yet another button from our bars.

I’ve never really used ES personally even if I think the ability is thematically cool.
Always just found it a bit frustrating to use previously and the payout to be lacking for investing so much effort into doing it right.


I appreciate your nuances and realistic take on this.

There is no way to please everyone, all the time.

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If seraphim is getting removed, at least bring it back as a replacement for Avenging wrath: Might as a wings tie in. Seraphim has so much flavor and you actually feel stronger when its active. You don’t feel the 20% crit chance at all for any paladin spec except for caster holy paladin who would still prefer seraphim. It would actually be a hard choice for ret and Prot picking between seraphim and crusade/sentinel and both talents would see play.

If there were arguably more important spells, it wouldn’t be optimal to press Seraphim over those alternatives…

I do think Seraphim brings the amount of stacking Ret could do to an unhealthy place, as that much burst makes it so we can only really be kept in check in PvP by allowing people to just bail out of our uptime entirely once the first sign of impending doom pops and in turn makes it hard to balance even the burst-favoring environments of M+ against the more sustained ones of raid (or adds-burst fights vs. more patchwork fights), so I won’t be terribly sorry to see it go. I just feel like a lot of the warrants for its removal are a bit out of whack.

It hasn’t been anything like a CS since Legion, though?

Feels like that might be a worst of both worlds. If it remains about as important a prep skill as before but now depends on RNG… Ehhhh.

This. 100%. Would be nice to just… let us choose. Get the necessary iconics in there early on, and then let us tailor it ourselves thereafter.

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:frowning: seraphim is the core mechanic of my build, crit caster heal, now no more 45% crit heals. F!@!

Funny you say that, because Icyveins clearly states you use it as often as possible, only delaying it if Avenging is about to come off CD. Icyveins says nothing about saving Seraphim for Divine Toll or Final Reckoning. Indeed, Icyveins only mentions the Divine Toll and Execution Sentence interaction.

So I mean… who’s right? The class guide writer or some dude on the forums?

“You should always slightly delay Seraphim to later align it with your other throughput cooldowns.” ~icyveins rotation page with seraphin, fr, dt selected

so do like you like to lie on the forums or do you lack reading comprehension? pick one.


It’s because it breaks the design purpose behind giving us 5 HP. Paladin started with 3 HP and it was a consistent build 3, then spend. People complained the rotation was boring and wanted procs to respond to. Instead of procs for free casting, they gave us procs for free HP. They also gave us 2 HP on some builders. But, unlike other combo point classes, our builders are also on cds.

The cardinal sin of combo points is overcapping. Once BoJ gave 2 HP, then you can only use it at 0 or 1 HP. So if you’re at 2 HP, and only BoJ is off cd, optimal play is to wait for a 1 HP builder to come off cd. That feels really bad. The solution was to increase the cap to 5. This allows us to use BoJ at 0, 1, 2 or 3 HP and “fixed” the problem and also made it less punishing to proc free HP.

Making a mechanic to encourage capping HP again breaks everything about 2 HP builders on a cd and proccing free HP causing wasted HP. It feels bad.


I recently went to the class discord about the same conflicts. They say to hold Seraphim and pair it with Final Reckoning.


Maybe its not the most common opinion, but duiring PTR test every 10.0.7 build, not having seraphim improved and smoothed HP generation and finisher use. Ive been enjoying WoA instead of Radiant Decree and ES cooldown reduction and HP cost elimination. In single target, HoW and Judgment can do enough damage that even if you did over cap on HP from pressing them a GCD early, its not a massive detriment to overall damage. The talent options provide quick building of spending with less GCDs spent on making abilities do more damage so you can instead, just do great damage. Being able to “go ham” right at the start of combat feels much better than waiting for Dawn from 5 HP, and Seraphim to be casted. I brefly listened to buffs recived late at some point on 3/20/2023. Havent found the blue post myself yet but it all sounds good. I will say the list of improvements for 10.0.7 Retribution compared to 10.0.5 is a long one and Im a happy customer.

Yeah I would rather have seraphim that is on demand versus dusk and dawn , I really wish wow would do away with weak auras all together so they don’t feel like they have to add abilities like dusk and dawn that make you have to watch weak auras for it


You dont need auras for d&d. You can just 123 on your mind and dusk comes after you spend the hp. You dont even have to look at it ever. You could go 1to6 if you wanted the two stacks but its pretty clear that going for 2 stacks is discouraged and a waste. At least after the first one it is.

On the other hand we kind of need for divine arbiter… inf you wanna couple that hit with something else like ire but then blizzard could add a visual cue for arbiter. Back in wod ret had 2 visual effects one for art of war one for the free ds proc. They could do that with arbiter and problem solved.

Yeah your right in pve but for pvp you want to stack as much damage in a window as you can do, following stacking buffs and maxing them in that window is preferred. Maybe I’m not sure on exactly how d and d works in the new rework so we will see, I’d really just prefer to get rid of weak auras or the need for weakauras in general.

Since you dont know how it works Ill tell you.

Whenever you use 3 hp generators (no matter order, could be the same 3 times) you get dawn (increases the damage and healing of next spender by 10%+10% if talented). After consuming dawn, you get dusk (5% damage reduction for x seconds). You can use 6 generators without using a spender and dawn will stack to 2 buffing your next spender. So far, stacking to 2 is very discouraged, will make you waste hp.

So as I said, its no longer a mainteance buff. You actually control it and I personally find it very easy to track without addons.

Serphim is trash bring back inquisition!