That is a really interesting insight! Thanks for taking the time to post that.
I have cleared the first wing of LFR a few times now and luckily the groups I have been in haven’t had issues with the first boss (unlike the early groups I joined)
Artificer Xy’mox, seems to be the easiest out of all the bosses as I haven’t had a group wipe on him yet. The fight is fairly simple and the damage from the shockwave / pulse isn’t that bad if you don’t step in the teleporter.
Skolex is a bit tricky for melee DPS, he can do a lot of damage but overall not too bad and haven’t wiped on this boss at all
Halondrus, by far my favourite boss so far. He looks so awesome, and the sounds and overall encounter is great. I love how he slowly goes from being stationary to moving to the next room. Yes, LFR does struggle with this boss quite a bit. Most issues are people not DPSing the shield down or not knocking back the spheres. There have been a few times people have died from being thrown off the edge due to not standing in the right place. I think once people learn the tactics there will be less wipes…I hope!
I’ve just cleared up the first LFR wing and I quite enjoyed it. I didn’t have much problems with wiping or otherwise, I died on the first boss because I was stupid and half the DPS wiped on almost every fight - but we never had the entire raid wipe and oneshot all the bosses. I thought the Guardian and Skolex were really easy and simple to understand, Xy’mox had some pretty cool mechanics that I quite enjoyed, and then we have Halondrus… which I thought was a pretty epic fight, having his loud voicelines blare all over you while he fires at you from all fronts, and crashing through the wall to move to new locations… yeah, I enjoyed that a lot! I can definitely see why a lot of LFR players might have difficulties with him, the fight was also really long - almost twice as long as Skolex in my run - which means that one mistake to the somewhat complicated mechanics can cost a lot of time and patience. I’m not sure if it needs nerfing yet, or if better gear levels and double legendaries will help out.
Thoughts on second wing:
Honestly, pretty boring. I did it in Normal with my guild, and still same thoughts. The only real mechanic is the rings, and to be honest, unless you are just absentminded, you won’t die from it. (To note, I’m well aware moving the boss in normal helped a lot with this, The absentminded comment was more LFR. Your tank handles most of the positioning in higher) This is more the “DPS check” fight of the raid than anything. So not much to say. In LFR, it’s fine, the rings and the barrage aren’t deadly even if people refuse to do mechanics lol. At least in the runs I’ve done - could very well be different on a Monday lol.
First thing I noticed - it’s not mentioned anywhere in the journal that the specific pairs share health in LFR. In past expansions, this was added with a red exclamation mark addendum. I didn’t notice this til my second run of it, when someone brought it up.
Secondly, I’m not sure if this is a mechanic or bug (I will be posted a thread in Bug Report regardless), someone in the LFR said it was a mechanic and it happens in Normal+ too, if you kill the Primus before the adds -
If you kill the Primus and Kyrestia while there are still ritualists alive, the ritualists despawn, but the unholy ground does not.
Other than that, this is probably my favorite fight from the raid so far. …from a DPS standpoint. From a healer standpoint, it’s literal hell.
I think even Blizzard knows a majority of healers heal with a healing UI like VuhDo. So to have not just one, but 4, non-raid member entities to heal, it wasn’t fun. It was me and a paladin that was healing them because the other 3 refused to put in the effort to target them. This is I believe specifically a problem to this fight in particular:
Due to healing UI’s capping at 5 bosses, and 4 already exist, it won’t load 3 of the seeds. (I also don’t like using an NPCs panel in general because it also shows hostile NPCs, which is of no help to me lol) So I normally stick to Focus for things like this.
I understand mouseover macros exist, but I have no interest in mouseover macros due to the aforementioned in other threads hand movement issues I have. They just aren’t viable for me.
I don’t think there’s anything you can do, but try to keep this in mind in future fights with multiple bosses. It wasn’t a problem with say Kael’thas or Huntsman in Nathria, cause we can just enable an NPC panel.
Lihuvim - This seems like a pretty basic fight. Easy to explain and pretty simple mechanics.
However, there is one mechanic that isn’t remotely explained in the dungeon journal:
Protoform Radiance. It’s not explained that you need to stand inside the “bay” the Geomental is forming in, so these stacks get removed when it dies.
I ended up with 10 stacks of Radiance because I didn’t know this, despite thoroughly reading the journal. I knew there was a buff from standing in an activate bay that reduced the damage, but didn’t know it cleared the stacks when the Geomental died. I almost died from it, but luckily we had a 270ish Holy Paladin trying for Tier Gloves who kept me alive.
Feedback on LoS mechanics
It would be nice if fights such as Queen Azshara and The Jailer where you’re forced behind pillars to line of sight would also make your raidframes line of sight those players you’re currently not in line of sight with. Currently I’m spending alot of time and focus trying to find players I can heal and it gets tedious and annoying. It removes alot of the fun from the first phase personally.
Feedback on massress in massive boss rooms
When you wipe on fights such as Lihuvim and you’re spread across the room it’s likely you’ll have to cast massress 1-3 times to cover all of the room depending on where people died.
Same goes for the boss room for Xy’mox as those far out on platforms will be out of range sometimes for massress and they must release and be summoned.
I don’t know if it’s possible to make the massresses reach further than 100 yards in particular zone id’s such as those boss rooms.
It has been already been mentioned in this thread but trash mobs is not “fun”. Even if it’s understandable it is there and should be there it’s just currently an excess amount of it to the point where the vast majority will just resort to soulstones, shroud skips and such. This has been a quite normal trend throughout tiers where alot of trash is present that you will just resort to skipping it and this time isn’t any different. The trash between Mekkatorque and Stormwall Blockade is a good previous example of an excess amount of tedious trash mobs.
There is no part of the trash that makes the raid enjoyable. Yes there should be some but the amount in there right now is unbearable. Especially the multiple death runs most guilds are doing to skip the trash to get to the bosses.
Next Wing is Out! Feedback Time! Also, as a reminder, this is strictly from an LFR point of view. I have done Normal up to Anduin (we got through all the phases but didn’t down him the night I was with them), but I don’t raid normal+ very often so I have little thoughts on it.
Halondrus: Sorry, I know it’s the first wing, but this really needs to be looked at. There’s just too many orbs and too many lazy players, which punishes the people actually trying. Heroism is also practically mandatory on the last phase, so if someone uses it on phase 1/2, it’s almost always a wipe.
This also applies to Vigilant Guardian. The DPS check from 15% to 0% could really use some tuning to not be so tight. If someone blows hero before 15%, there’s a rather good chance you are going to wipe.
Anduin: I think for the first time in the history of my playing I am going to utter something that disturbs me:
This boss could stand to be buffed. I completely understand why the fight was gutted, as I’ve done it on normal, but it is almost impossible to die on this fight if your healers are even remotely paying attention. Like, my group had 4-5 blasphemy explosions at once and I didn’t fall under 90% lol.
That said, it was refreshing to have a no stress fight.
Lords of Dread: The dungeon journal doesn’t explain even remotely how to do the imposter phase. My group had a few people who know so they did it then told us how after the fight (kinda counter productive lol). I rely on the journal to quickly understand a fight before, as watching videos and reading guides don’t help me with how my brain works. This is one of the few times the journal was of no help whatsoever.
The damage the raid takes during the Swarm phase could really do with some tuning down. We had healers pumping big numbers and they still killed a few of us during the phase and i was constantly dipping to 20%. I feel like this is going to outright require determination stacks later in the week.
Rygelon: I’m going to be honest. I still don’t know what the hell was going on. Killed adds, got knocked back into an orb which turned the screen a weird color, and that was the fight. The journal explained it but I had no idea what any of the moves looked like and there was like 6 things going on at once so it was thoroughly confusing lol. Like the lines on the ground, the circles on the ground, the orbs. I just didn’t understand it. I will with further attempts but the journal was both helpful and unhelpful at the same time lol.
Thanks for the notes! These are useful for us to cross reference with our internal data points that we gather as well.
On that note, we internally gather data on things like how many times any group loses to a boss before killing it, fight duration, etc. These can be separated by raid difficulty, raid size, average item levels, date of kill, and more. If a boss shows up as out of band for a particular difficulty given its place in the raid, we open conversations to resolve that outlier. It’s not often that we might make a boss harder (especially in LFR), but certainly if data shows a boss to be too tough, we’ll take a deeper look at it.
On the topic of the dungeon journal, these are good points. At a high level, we try to have the dungeon journal describe to players what a spell does, and not how to handle a mechanic. An example previously mentioned is that Painsmith’s spikes in the dungeon journal tell you they do a bunch of damage if they hit players, but it doesn’t mention spike patterns or moving walls of spikes. Similar to that, the Lords of Dread and Rygelon dungeon journals should inform players what a spell effectively does, while at the same time not giving instructions to players as to how they should solve the mechanic. Experiencing the mechanic first hand should always be the most informative method for learning a boss. That’s not to say we always hit these points though, we’re constantly looking to improve on visibility and clarity in boss fights and the dungeon journal itself.
Thanks once more for the feedback points and bug reports though! For us, data points should not be the sole determining factor for making decisions–player sentiment and feedback also play a very important role.
Thank you for the reply!
I understand not explaining how to solve it, I don’t like it being given away completely as I do like learning, and in turn teaching the other LFR players in later runs, but there’s a certain effect that’s LFR-specific that causes the infiltration mechanic to be more difficult than in Normal+ for people who don’t know the fight, which contributes a problem:
If you hit the wrong person for too much damage, you get a 3 second stun… that stacks based on how many people you hit. I assume this was done to stop trolls from wiping the raid, which is great. I love when you guys are proactive in things like that.
However, if you don’t use addons to know when the imposter phase is coming, you might end up like me about a half hour ago, with Starfall active on my druid when the phase starts. Unfortunately, when that happens, it hits everyone, and… cue the stun that lasted 30+ seconds.
The mechanic isn’t listed in the journal at all (I assume because it’s an LFR only thing) - I had no idea that stun existed in LFR, so I didn’t think to manually disable starfall when I saw the phase was starting. It happened to the other druid on our second attempt as well.
Perhaps you guys could make the stun from that wear off if the group successfully ends the infiltrator stage? It was awkward being there stunned unable to do anything after the group had found the infiltrators like 20 seconds earlier. Lol.
Side note: I’m assuming Lords were bugged yesterday, as I didn’t have the dreadlord graphic that shows you the imposters in LFR, which is why I didn’t understand the mechanic. However, it was visible on my druid today. So it is actually rather explanatory now with common sense lol.
Also, a minor note on Rygelon, the dungeon journal in LFR states that he kills everyone that isn’t in the other realm with Massive Bang. However, I’m not sure if it’s bugged or an LFR feature that isn’t properly stated in the journal, but it doesn’t kill you. I don’t know how much damage you take, but I personally watched half my group just take the hit and then go to the orbs after it was done. But the Journal does still state it kills you instantly, so that might need to be adjusted.
The Lihuvim Mythic encounter has issues which seems to be related to abilities that causes the boss to cast slower.
So what should happen is:
Motes > Clear Mote > Cosmic Shift
What can happen if you have an ability that causes the boss to cast slower (Sinful Brand, Numbing Poison & Curse of Tongues) is that it instead does the following.
Motes > Cosmic Shift > Clear motes.
When this happens (as it’s random, happens maybe every 10 pulls) you’ll have motes up for the cosmic shift.
This can only happen for the motes that spawn at 01:32 & 02:16, this never happens at any other point during the fight.
Most likely not intended design of the boss but thought I’d share it as it’s something most Mythic guilds has experienced and is wasting alot of time on trying to figure out what’s happening as there is no super obvious cause for it happening.
I wish to withdraw my previous claim about Anduin: Anduin LFR is not too easy. I apparently just had 2 good groups. I just had a group that ended up wiping like 4 times because people wouldn’t stand in his barrier. Which is apparently a very wipeable feature in LFR, because it will explode for like 80% of the entire raid’s health then put a healing absorb for twice the maximum health of most people on everyone. Lol.
I really hate doing LFR after Wednesday, but with this many toons, I have to in order to not burn myself out.
Rygelon LFR may need to be watched later in the week by you guys, since you mention using internal data. I just had to go through 3 stacks of determination, through no fault of the group.
This is relatively normal DPS for LFR. Most of the group was in the 220s. (220 is required to queue) So 3-4k is okay for that. Especially since most of them won’t have tier or double legendary yet. This is actually good DPS for a group like this, as I’m sure you know.
We hit the soft enrage timer twice, and only managed it the second time because after we realized we weren’t going to make it, the other healers and I told them to ignore the adds and focus boss. It was a ton of damage, but we somehow healed through it, and we won while he was casting Massive Bang.
I offered to go Ret to try to make up the difference but the other healers didn’t want to 4 heal it.
And they were doing the mechanics. Things were dying, stars weren’t exploding. Everyone lived every attempt until the final massive bang wiped us all out. (turns out the Massive Bang IS fatal in LFR, but only the 4th time he casts it, the first 3 times it does nothing lol) We just didn’t have the DPS to beat him, even though we were doing normal, if not above average, dps for LFR.
Sorry for the extra post - sometimes extra things only show up later in the week. And I’ll make sure to wait before LFR Jailer feedback for when I do it later in that week.
I do a lot of LFR atm to collect all the sets and tmog with every class but I’m a little bit annoyed right now. I often get invited to bosses where I allready have ID on… So I have to queue and wait again… as happened today I got invited 2 times to rygelon… I killed him first time so i couldn’t loot him again. I have to wait for the third time now for this part… that doesn’t feel good and it costs a lot of time.
Another time I was invited to halondrus but the group was allready infight and I couldn’t even join the dungeon, so I waited for nothing, not a single boss for me.
For me there is no need to invite a single dps or two if the grp is missing them. I dont know why the tool is doing this, especially as this causes a chain reaction. Then if i join 3rd Boss i will leave after the 2nd boss when the next invite comes and another poor person will get an invite for 3rd boss only and do the same and this goes on and on and on.
This has happened to me often as well where I get queued to kill that last boss in a wing and then get queued in again to kill only the last boss again even though it’s the only boss in the wing I’ve already killed. It happens a lot as a healer. I’m also doing LFR on several alts for transmog so I’m sure I see it more frequently than those who only run the whole thing once a week.
Given the amount of trash that is in this raid it really would be nice if more of it gave rep gains like a lot of the older raids used to.
I have played through all the wings of LFR currently open (which is everything except the Jailer) on various characters. I still feel that the first wing is the “hardest”, as people still seem to fail on the first and last boss of this wing.
As for the other wings, they are pretty easy and I don’t think I have been a group that has wiped…yet.
Out of all the bosses in LFR I find Anduin the easiest as nothing that bad really happens in LFR mode.
I do wish that more rep was given for this raid as it doesn’t really give a huge amount.
Perhaps time to revisit tuning of the bosses and nerf them abit. It’s very far into mythic progression already with few guilds finishing the raid yet. Alot of guilds expected to be done at this point already.
Traditionally the benchmark for nerfs is when Hall of Fame is closing but considering how long it’s already been maybe we should see some Anduin Wrynn / Rygelon / Jailer nerfs. Perhaps Halondrus also.
And the last boss is now available! (Again, this is strictly an LFR player perspective, please keep that in mind. :)) I did say I would wait til later in the week, but after looking at his loot table, I likely won’t run it more than this time. Maybe on my Paladin for the mace, but meh. The trinkets look pretty meh and don’t sim higher than my Zereth Mortis trinkets.
I love that you guys learned from N’zoth that permanent mind controls do not go well in LFR. You left the MC mechanic in, but made it so the rest of the raid is able to break them out by attacking them. This is a nice compromise. I did notice that MC in LFR increases health by 100%, whereas in Normal+ it’s 50%. Was there a particular reason for this? Also, can you look into possibly changing how DoTs stay on after it breaks? One healer got killed dispelling Unstable Affliction cause a troll warlock dotted someone.
When he pulls the group in, you might want to look at how it’s done. He pulled me on top of a hole. Like, literally on top of a hole, so I fell to my death. He wasn’t even near the hole either. He just threw me to the side over a hole. And you can’t move when it’s happening so I couldn’t try to save myself with disengage or such. It happened to 2 other people in our second attempt.
Likewise, when we throw ourselves into the hole when we have the bomb, I literally got shot out and right into another hole. Luckily I WAS able to disengage, but if I were on a class without something like that - I would have died without any fault of my own. I tried rotating my body and the direction I jumped in the hole in subsequent attempts, but it seemed random which way it threw me. Not very fun to die from something you can’t control.
The only real issue I had with the fight was… Defile. (And by issue, it’s more a future issue than a current one)
The first odd thing is this isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Dungeon Journal. Not in the role highlights, or even his ability list. It simply is not in the journal. It IS in the Normal+ Journal though, but not LFR Journal. Could we get that added?
Secondly, I assume you already vastly slowed down how fast it spreads in LFR, but I can tell you with 1000% certainty, there will be trolls who purposely spread it in LFR in a few months. I try not to advocate things like this, but please consider removing the spreading mechanic from LFR only. That said, it wasn’t an issue, and I think the mechanic is fine as is, but I just know, from personal experience in past LFRs, that trolls will come in and wipe groups by standing in it on purpose. I’d rather you be proactive than reactive. Removing the spread mechanic doesn’t take away anything really from the difficulty in LFR with how slow it already spreads, all it would do would take away trolling potential.
And on the opposite issue of Defile, Desolation doesn’t appear to be a mechanic in LFR, but it’s still mentioned in the overview for the roles (but not in the ability list). “Any damage not intercepted during Desolation will harm Azeroth.” - I saw a health bar for Azeroth and it slowly went down, but at no point did he mention using Desolation, BigWigs didn’t mention it, and Desolation isn’t listed in the moves he can use in the journal.
So I assume the health just tics down slowly in LFR as a soft berserk? But either way, only mentioned this cause if it’s not in LFR, that should probably be removed from the role highlights
There was some nerfs already on some bosses but with Hall of Fame closing up on Horde might wanna look at some further nerfs. It’s Holidays, summer and all that good stuff that is always a challenge for guilds. Alot of guilds expected to be done quite a while ago so some further nerfs might be justified.
Primarily speaking about nerfs for Rygelon & The Jailer.
Can it be changed that the secret phase no longer heals to 24% and that it’s just not healing at all? Every guild is trying to bug it and most people kill it in their bugged attempts.
The fight is already very long (as in fight length) and most guilds has 200-400 pulls on it. Worth keeping in mind when looking at those pull count numbers is that the absolute majority of these kills also are bugged kills.
I’m no CE raider.
My guild just killed Mythic Guardian last night on our first night of Mythic prog.
Let me say, that boss is SOOOO much better on mythic.
On normal & Heroic that boss is a waste of time. Standing around, waiting for adds to spawn in a boss fight is not fun gameplay. But on mythic with the boss up 100% of the time, it makes me wonder why it wasn’t up all the time on other difficulties.
The bombs, and Overclock are sufficient Mythic mechanics for a first boss, and if you wanted to crank up the difficulty more, make him go to Phase 3 at 20% instead of 15%.