It would appear that on Halondrus the Reclaimer during his transition phase Brewmaster monks are unable to Zen Meditation as the Lances count as melee attacks breaking Zen meditation which seems to be a glitch even at extreme ranges.
Just to piggyback on this.
Can we get a dev to work on the dungeon journal for LFR?
I can’t imagine it would take very long to simply remove the entries and lines for mechanics that were removed?
It feels like the LFR journal is just copy/paste the normal guide to LFR and adjust the numbers.
But mechanics that don’t exist are left in. Things like skolex burrowing.
This was a big problem for the first few months of sanctum where the tarragrue berserking, killing the eyes at the same time, etc were all left in the LFR dungeon journal but weren’t actual mechanics in LFR. People would argue about it a lot. Usually when a normal + raider came in for transmog and insisted the mechanic was there because the journal said it was.
Normal, Heroic, and Mythic journals are great. Mechanics aren’t listed if they aren’t there, etc. It’s just LFR.
Honestly every boss is pretty nice so far. Outside of the already known tuning issues I think the only boss thing I can think of was first boss where adds should (imo) spawn a lot faster after you’ve killed the previous set because they just die instantly on heroic and normal and you spend like 5 minutes just waiting.
Trash is extremely obnoxious though, there’s way too much of it with way too much health and seemingly every other add has a random funny mechanic so you can’t just gigapull everything and zerg them down. Doubling down on the invis detecting mobs is also a really weird decision to me because we just deathskip it instead, else more than half the raid time is wasted on trash unless you’re progging a boss.
Not really raid specific, but as more and more people get their set bonuses this problem will arise where specs that only have their BiS legendaries available in tier slots will have to play without their set bonus.
These slots should be addressed or alternatively every legendary just made available in every slot (similar to Unity).
The Creation Catalyst should solve this. Though yes, it is a problem in the next 4 weeks before the Catalyst.
For instance, Shadow Priests who use Shadowflame Prism - Head or Gloves. Say they loot Helm, Shoulders, Gloves, and Legs. When the Catalyst opens on April 12th, they could turn a chestpiece they’ve looted from season 3 into a Tier Chestpiece, effectively opening up either the head or glove slot.
But yea, I don’t quite understand why legendaries are limited in what slot they can go in, personally. I feel like that’s just a way to passively inflate the price of legendaries for the popular slots.
One thing I’d like to know - the Creation Catalyst is touted as a way for non-raiders to get tier. But I’ve only ever seen Blizzard and Wowhead say Season 3 gear - this implies M+, Raid, or PvP. Does this mean open-world players can’t convert their cypher gear into tier?
That is correct.
I love the raid tunning so far, feels great compared to previous tiers. The only problem I have and many more I assume, is the first boss, feels really weird and has a lot of downtime, something to think about in the future. Anduin by far is the most enjoyable fight and the encounter is amazing. Tuning and fight designed are honestly one of the best in the most recent years. Keep up the great work.
It is easy for us to remove entries for mechanics that are removed entirely. In the case of Skolex, the Ravening Burrow mechanic isn’t gone entirely in LFR, it’s different, and that it wasn’t changed by release is a bug that slipped by, which happens.
So what Skolex needs is to have the text entries involving the spell on LFR re-written, and that includes the Overview, the role based bullet points, and the spell description itself. Once that’s done, it gets passed to our localization teams across the globe which will translate it into all of the languages we support! Then QA is checking it, making sure everything’s right, and giving the thumbs up.
That’s a lot of people involved in a bug fix working across some vastly different time zones, so changing text is actually rather tricky. Compare this to the Wormhole Jaws mechanic, which we just removed on LFR after seeing the wing open and finding it wasn’t really a clean, clear, or fun experience. That was super easy, it wasn’t changed, it just got pulled entirely, and it’s easy to remove from the LFR dungeon journal. That’s something that’s done by one designer and verified by QA, no extra translation steps necessary.
This feedback is valuable though, we’ve seen and heard it from multiple sources, and we’ve already gotten started on an update for the Skolex Dungeon Journal entries! That update will have to be deployed in a full patch in the future though.
Didn’t even think about the translations or that you might re-write the entries rather than just remove the extra line about stacking. Always forget WoW is in multiple languages.
Glad to know it’s being fixed though. I can’t recall if there were mechanics listed for the other bosses that aren’t in LFR, but the “will burrow if you stack too much” thing was noticeable, as it caused some arguments the first day lol.
I think Skolex’s burrow when stack just had me worried we might have a repeat of sanctum where almost every boss had a mechanic not in LFR listed in the guide for LFR lol. Though so far it’s just been Skolex’s “burrow if you clump” mechanic. I’ll obviously post feedback on other bosses as they unlock as well, including if any mechanics slipped by in the dungeon journal.
Glad to know Skolex’s entry is being fixed, even if it’ll take a patch to update though Thanks for your hard work! <3
That is a really interesting insight! Thanks for taking the time to post that.
I have cleared the first wing of LFR a few times now and luckily the groups I have been in haven’t had issues with the first boss (unlike the early groups I joined)
Artificer Xy’mox, seems to be the easiest out of all the bosses as I haven’t had a group wipe on him yet. The fight is fairly simple and the damage from the shockwave / pulse isn’t that bad if you don’t step in the teleporter.
Skolex is a bit tricky for melee DPS, he can do a lot of damage but overall not too bad and haven’t wiped on this boss at all
Halondrus, by far my favourite boss so far. He looks so awesome, and the sounds and overall encounter is great. I love how he slowly goes from being stationary to moving to the next room. Yes, LFR does struggle with this boss quite a bit. Most issues are people not DPSing the shield down or not knocking back the spheres. There have been a few times people have died from being thrown off the edge due to not standing in the right place. I think once people learn the tactics there will be less wipes…I hope!
I’ve just cleared up the first LFR wing and I quite enjoyed it. I didn’t have much problems with wiping or otherwise, I died on the first boss because I was stupid and half the DPS wiped on almost every fight - but we never had the entire raid wipe and oneshot all the bosses. I thought the Guardian and Skolex were really easy and simple to understand, Xy’mox had some pretty cool mechanics that I quite enjoyed, and then we have Halondrus… which I thought was a pretty epic fight, having his loud voicelines blare all over you while he fires at you from all fronts, and crashing through the wall to move to new locations… yeah, I enjoyed that a lot! I can definitely see why a lot of LFR players might have difficulties with him, the fight was also really long - almost twice as long as Skolex in my run - which means that one mistake to the somewhat complicated mechanics can cost a lot of time and patience. I’m not sure if it needs nerfing yet, or if better gear levels and double legendaries will help out.
Thoughts on second wing:
Honestly, pretty boring. I did it in Normal with my guild, and still same thoughts. The only real mechanic is the rings, and to be honest, unless you are just absentminded, you won’t die from it. (To note, I’m well aware moving the boss in normal helped a lot with this, The absentminded comment was more LFR. Your tank handles most of the positioning in higher) This is more the “DPS check” fight of the raid than anything. So not much to say. In LFR, it’s fine, the rings and the barrage aren’t deadly even if people refuse to do mechanics lol. At least in the runs I’ve done - could very well be different on a Monday lol.
First thing I noticed - it’s not mentioned anywhere in the journal that the specific pairs share health in LFR. In past expansions, this was added with a red exclamation mark addendum. I didn’t notice this til my second run of it, when someone brought it up.
Secondly, I’m not sure if this is a mechanic or bug (I will be posted a thread in Bug Report regardless), someone in the LFR said it was a mechanic and it happens in Normal+ too, if you kill the Primus before the adds -
If you kill the Primus and Kyrestia while there are still ritualists alive, the ritualists despawn, but the unholy ground does not.
Other than that, this is probably my favorite fight from the raid so far. …from a DPS standpoint. From a healer standpoint, it’s literal hell.
I think even Blizzard knows a majority of healers heal with a healing UI like VuhDo. So to have not just one, but 4, non-raid member entities to heal, it wasn’t fun. It was me and a paladin that was healing them because the other 3 refused to put in the effort to target them. This is I believe specifically a problem to this fight in particular:
Due to healing UI’s capping at 5 bosses, and 4 already exist, it won’t load 3 of the seeds. (I also don’t like using an NPCs panel in general because it also shows hostile NPCs, which is of no help to me lol) So I normally stick to Focus for things like this.
I understand mouseover macros exist, but I have no interest in mouseover macros due to the aforementioned in other threads hand movement issues I have. They just aren’t viable for me.
I don’t think there’s anything you can do, but try to keep this in mind in future fights with multiple bosses. It wasn’t a problem with say Kael’thas or Huntsman in Nathria, cause we can just enable an NPC panel.
Lihuvim - This seems like a pretty basic fight. Easy to explain and pretty simple mechanics.
However, there is one mechanic that isn’t remotely explained in the dungeon journal:
Protoform Radiance. It’s not explained that you need to stand inside the “bay” the Geomental is forming in, so these stacks get removed when it dies.
I ended up with 10 stacks of Radiance because I didn’t know this, despite thoroughly reading the journal. I knew there was a buff from standing in an activate bay that reduced the damage, but didn’t know it cleared the stacks when the Geomental died. I almost died from it, but luckily we had a 270ish Holy Paladin trying for Tier Gloves who kept me alive.
Feedback on LoS mechanics
It would be nice if fights such as Queen Azshara and The Jailer where you’re forced behind pillars to line of sight would also make your raidframes line of sight those players you’re currently not in line of sight with. Currently I’m spending alot of time and focus trying to find players I can heal and it gets tedious and annoying. It removes alot of the fun from the first phase personally.
Feedback on massress in massive boss rooms
When you wipe on fights such as Lihuvim and you’re spread across the room it’s likely you’ll have to cast massress 1-3 times to cover all of the room depending on where people died.
Same goes for the boss room for Xy’mox as those far out on platforms will be out of range sometimes for massress and they must release and be summoned.
I don’t know if it’s possible to make the massresses reach further than 100 yards in particular zone id’s such as those boss rooms.
It has been already been mentioned in this thread but trash mobs is not “fun”. Even if it’s understandable it is there and should be there it’s just currently an excess amount of it to the point where the vast majority will just resort to soulstones, shroud skips and such. This has been a quite normal trend throughout tiers where alot of trash is present that you will just resort to skipping it and this time isn’t any different. The trash between Mekkatorque and Stormwall Blockade is a good previous example of an excess amount of tedious trash mobs.
There is no part of the trash that makes the raid enjoyable. Yes there should be some but the amount in there right now is unbearable. Especially the multiple death runs most guilds are doing to skip the trash to get to the bosses.
Next Wing is Out! Feedback Time! Also, as a reminder, this is strictly from an LFR point of view. I have done Normal up to Anduin (we got through all the phases but didn’t down him the night I was with them), but I don’t raid normal+ very often so I have little thoughts on it.
Halondrus: Sorry, I know it’s the first wing, but this really needs to be looked at. There’s just too many orbs and too many lazy players, which punishes the people actually trying. Heroism is also practically mandatory on the last phase, so if someone uses it on phase 1/2, it’s almost always a wipe.
This also applies to Vigilant Guardian. The DPS check from 15% to 0% could really use some tuning to not be so tight. If someone blows hero before 15%, there’s a rather good chance you are going to wipe.
Anduin: I think for the first time in the history of my playing I am going to utter something that disturbs me:
This boss could stand to be buffed. I completely understand why the fight was gutted, as I’ve done it on normal, but it is almost impossible to die on this fight if your healers are even remotely paying attention. Like, my group had 4-5 blasphemy explosions at once and I didn’t fall under 90% lol.
That said, it was refreshing to have a no stress fight.
Lords of Dread: The dungeon journal doesn’t explain even remotely how to do the imposter phase. My group had a few people who know so they did it then told us how after the fight (kinda counter productive lol). I rely on the journal to quickly understand a fight before, as watching videos and reading guides don’t help me with how my brain works. This is one of the few times the journal was of no help whatsoever.
The damage the raid takes during the Swarm phase could really do with some tuning down. We had healers pumping big numbers and they still killed a few of us during the phase and i was constantly dipping to 20%. I feel like this is going to outright require determination stacks later in the week.
Rygelon: I’m going to be honest. I still don’t know what the hell was going on. Killed adds, got knocked back into an orb which turned the screen a weird color, and that was the fight. The journal explained it but I had no idea what any of the moves looked like and there was like 6 things going on at once so it was thoroughly confusing lol. Like the lines on the ground, the circles on the ground, the orbs. I just didn’t understand it. I will with further attempts but the journal was both helpful and unhelpful at the same time lol.
Thanks for the notes! These are useful for us to cross reference with our internal data points that we gather as well.
On that note, we internally gather data on things like how many times any group loses to a boss before killing it, fight duration, etc. These can be separated by raid difficulty, raid size, average item levels, date of kill, and more. If a boss shows up as out of band for a particular difficulty given its place in the raid, we open conversations to resolve that outlier. It’s not often that we might make a boss harder (especially in LFR), but certainly if data shows a boss to be too tough, we’ll take a deeper look at it.
On the topic of the dungeon journal, these are good points. At a high level, we try to have the dungeon journal describe to players what a spell does, and not how to handle a mechanic. An example previously mentioned is that Painsmith’s spikes in the dungeon journal tell you they do a bunch of damage if they hit players, but it doesn’t mention spike patterns or moving walls of spikes. Similar to that, the Lords of Dread and Rygelon dungeon journals should inform players what a spell effectively does, while at the same time not giving instructions to players as to how they should solve the mechanic. Experiencing the mechanic first hand should always be the most informative method for learning a boss. That’s not to say we always hit these points though, we’re constantly looking to improve on visibility and clarity in boss fights and the dungeon journal itself.
Thanks once more for the feedback points and bug reports though! For us, data points should not be the sole determining factor for making decisions–player sentiment and feedback also play a very important role.
Thank you for the reply!
I understand not explaining how to solve it, I don’t like it being given away completely as I do like learning, and in turn teaching the other LFR players in later runs, but there’s a certain effect that’s LFR-specific that causes the infiltration mechanic to be more difficult than in Normal+ for people who don’t know the fight, which contributes a problem:
If you hit the wrong person for too much damage, you get a 3 second stun… that stacks based on how many people you hit. I assume this was done to stop trolls from wiping the raid, which is great. I love when you guys are proactive in things like that.
However, if you don’t use addons to know when the imposter phase is coming, you might end up like me about a half hour ago, with Starfall active on my druid when the phase starts. Unfortunately, when that happens, it hits everyone, and… cue the stun that lasted 30+ seconds.
The mechanic isn’t listed in the journal at all (I assume because it’s an LFR only thing) - I had no idea that stun existed in LFR, so I didn’t think to manually disable starfall when I saw the phase was starting. It happened to the other druid on our second attempt as well.
Perhaps you guys could make the stun from that wear off if the group successfully ends the infiltrator stage? It was awkward being there stunned unable to do anything after the group had found the infiltrators like 20 seconds earlier. Lol.
Side note: I’m assuming Lords were bugged yesterday, as I didn’t have the dreadlord graphic that shows you the imposters in LFR, which is why I didn’t understand the mechanic. However, it was visible on my druid today. So it is actually rather explanatory now with common sense lol.
Also, a minor note on Rygelon, the dungeon journal in LFR states that he kills everyone that isn’t in the other realm with Massive Bang. However, I’m not sure if it’s bugged or an LFR feature that isn’t properly stated in the journal, but it doesn’t kill you. I don’t know how much damage you take, but I personally watched half my group just take the hit and then go to the orbs after it was done. But the Journal does still state it kills you instantly, so that might need to be adjusted.
The Lihuvim Mythic encounter has issues which seems to be related to abilities that causes the boss to cast slower.
So what should happen is:
Motes > Clear Mote > Cosmic Shift
What can happen if you have an ability that causes the boss to cast slower (Sinful Brand, Numbing Poison & Curse of Tongues) is that it instead does the following.
Motes > Cosmic Shift > Clear motes.
When this happens (as it’s random, happens maybe every 10 pulls) you’ll have motes up for the cosmic shift.
This can only happen for the motes that spawn at 01:32 & 02:16, this never happens at any other point during the fight.
Most likely not intended design of the boss but thought I’d share it as it’s something most Mythic guilds has experienced and is wasting alot of time on trying to figure out what’s happening as there is no super obvious cause for it happening.
I wish to withdraw my previous claim about Anduin: Anduin LFR is not too easy. I apparently just had 2 good groups. I just had a group that ended up wiping like 4 times because people wouldn’t stand in his barrier. Which is apparently a very wipeable feature in LFR, because it will explode for like 80% of the entire raid’s health then put a healing absorb for twice the maximum health of most people on everyone. Lol.
I really hate doing LFR after Wednesday, but with this many toons, I have to in order to not burn myself out.
Rygelon LFR may need to be watched later in the week by you guys, since you mention using internal data. I just had to go through 3 stacks of determination, through no fault of the group.
This is relatively normal DPS for LFR. Most of the group was in the 220s. (220 is required to queue) So 3-4k is okay for that. Especially since most of them won’t have tier or double legendary yet. This is actually good DPS for a group like this, as I’m sure you know.
We hit the soft enrage timer twice, and only managed it the second time because after we realized we weren’t going to make it, the other healers and I told them to ignore the adds and focus boss. It was a ton of damage, but we somehow healed through it, and we won while he was casting Massive Bang.
I offered to go Ret to try to make up the difference but the other healers didn’t want to 4 heal it.
And they were doing the mechanics. Things were dying, stars weren’t exploding. Everyone lived every attempt until the final massive bang wiped us all out. (turns out the Massive Bang IS fatal in LFR, but only the 4th time he casts it, the first 3 times it does nothing lol) We just didn’t have the DPS to beat him, even though we were doing normal, if not above average, dps for LFR.
Sorry for the extra post - sometimes extra things only show up later in the week. And I’ll make sure to wait before LFR Jailer feedback for when I do it later in that week.