That’s not what “shoe is on the other foot” means. Before Horde at least had their superior pvp racials as something to fallback on to balance out the Alliance’s better pve racials. Now Horde have better racials in both departments. I think that’s where the complaining is coming from. I’m not even a dragon slayer but I feel where they’re coming from. No surprise though. Blizzard is always going to put their babies first when it comes to faction tuning.
Did you even read the post? They clearly said they dont want to nerf classes significantly as people are still progging.
Not sure what you couldn’t comprehend here. Its a level 50 level up raid, who cares that X faction gets more mana. You got buffed, enjoy it. Move on.
Literally the top pinned thread on the SoD forums. Or i guess its easier to just complain about changes… idk. AW was changed with p3 release.
There is however a typo on AW, its not 5% damage its 5% physical damage.
I’m noticing this too, thought I was reading something wrong but felguard +meta doesn’t increase threat
300/350 on crit per tick?! It was doing 450-550 total in 15 sec with ~250 shadow damage for me. Haven’t tested it after patch yet.
They just killed shaman tank
Lol lighting shield was 30% of your damage?! That’s horrible game design. Glad they nerfed it. They should also nerf Enh drastically.
Just shows how bad you both must be. It was the only skill based and rewarding rotation Ret has seen in all of classic. It was so well received, they intentionally gave it to ally in BC classic. When they removed it, Ret was garbage again until a set bonus could reset Divine storm on melee in the last raid of WotLK.
Just saying something is a bad idea doesn’t mean it is. It worked well and didn’t require a rework of all weapons to fast speeds to make Ret still have the WORST DPS of every class in the game. Saying you didn’t like seal twisting is one thing, but just say it how it is, you weren’t good enough to do it.
I doubt you can read this far down seeing your other post and you’ll reply without knowing what you’re talking about I’m sure, but if you read the original post, I said I’d rather Twist than have the crap we have now, not even that I want it. The point was that Ret’s need massive work to make the normal weapons in wow give them the ability to do competitive DPS. I don’t want to farm a 40 man raid for my best level 50 weapon. I cleared Gnomer many times and never even saw ACP drop once. I think my whole guild only saw it once. The only other even slightly acceptable DPS weapon for Rets is from ZF and I’ve farmed it countless times now with not even one of the swords dropping. Even that thing is better for current Rets than the 2h epic sword from the raid. THAT is true POOR design.
I agree it was the only (limited) skill based rotation had in classic, but that doesn’t mean it was good.
Any unintuitive hidden mechanic that 99% of the player base would need to have looked up on the internet to even know about is bad design.
No it wasn’t.
It was a limitation of the programming at the time.
A mechanic that was no longer was possible to do when using the current framework for the classic reiteration, so the developers had to manually make it function explicitly to retain the integrity of the original TBC release.
WotLK Ret is also garbage design. “I press my buttons when they light up!” Yay, look at you go champ.
The tier set didn’t fix that, it just added a random element that occasionally changed the order the buttons were pressed in.
Again, a hidden mechanic for the baseline of a rotation that 9/10 times relied on the use of an addon is bad design, ie a bad idea.
You can like it, subjectively. But it’s bad design, objectively.
Noone said Sod Seal of Martyrdom was good design. It’s also bad design, hidden attack speed normalised damage is also bad. Having to follow up by releasing a unusually fast 2H to compensate for it is worse.
Bud, I hate to be the one to let you know this, but seal twisting wasn’t hard, and being able to press a button when your attack swing addon reaches the green bar doesn’t make you a good player.
Sorry if you’ve been living on that copium for the past 17 years since TBC.
Hello.
That’s a fair subjective opinion, but that doesn’t mean twisting was good, or difficult.
Yes, that is also poor design.
Especially ontop of giving cats a consumable MCP when it was a design problem Ret also suffered from.
I don’t think seal twisting is in anyway better though.
Whilst not optimal SoM functions with slower weapons, so the punishment behind not knowing the hidden mechanic is much less severe.
Having a 3.5 speed instead of a 3.3 isn’t game breaking, but where they really messes up was adding a 2.0 speed (faster than most 1Hs???)
They forced the problem of MCP/ACP even further with the normalisation, then hamfisted a way to break ACP from being BiS for the entire game.
I do agree the class needs a massive rework, but I still don’t agree replacing one poor design issue with another subjectively worse issue is a good solution.
It’s like you’re trying argue with me while saying I’m right about everything I said. yay?
And seal twisting was already in this build but it seems they disabled it, any I’m sure any good ret would argue for it over what we have now and it would take minimal changes and they can leave all the weapons alone. I’m a pure ret who’s been Ret since wow came out. I loved twisting and would be super happy to have it over this current garbage. If you think about it, I’m sure you would too.
The same could be said for Warriors with heroic strike (main-hand ability queue removing the DW hit penalty) and hunters with auto shot clipping.
Just because mechanics are “unintuitive” does not mean they inherently are bad or should not be in the game. In all three of these cases - Warriors, Hunters, TBC Paladins - the presence of such mechanics massively raised the output ceiling for all of these classes and felt rewarding to pull off.
That’s part of the appeal of “Classic” WoW for most people. Pushing your class to the max of it’s potential. If you don’t like that, that’s fine. You’re not alone. But your opinions about it don’t invalidate those of others.
As far as seal twisting and paladins go, it has proven to be the only way to massively raise the damage and contribution potential of the OG seal and judgement retribution paladin that is represented in Vanilla and TBC. If you don’t like twisting fine, but just be honest and say you don’t like seal and judgement paladin at all. Don’t deflect that disdain to one of the few classic playstyles that allows for expression of skill. Like it or not, seal twisting is the peak of the seal and judgement ret.
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LOL they made it a useless rune
Always love seeing new updates and fixes come out. But lets talk about skull bash for a second. Making it a hands slot interferes with mangle. As a feral druid it hinders you not having a interrupt and is a nice utility to have. While still having your main damage ability mangle.
I’m certainly agreeing with you that the current design is poor, but that doesn’t mean I agree on seal twisting, or that it should be implemented or difficult.
All I’m simply saying is replacing something that is broken for something equally broken isn’t the solution we should be looking for.
I’d argue both of these are significantly less impactful than seal twisting which essentially formed a significant part of a rotation as opposed to being optimisation through animation cancelling.
It depends on the mechanic, I’m sure that those mechanics were not really intentional, but also not really game breaking either.
They were baseline interactions within the game that weren’t intended, but weren’t specified against either.
Seal twisting was not only unintended, but specifically stated so by the game. “Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time”
So not only is it “hidden” but it’s explicitly stated that it shouldn’t be possible.
That is a big issue of miscommunication between game and player, one that I’m sure if they could have fixed it back in TBC they would have.
That being said, in the terms of using queued abilities to ignore DW penalty that’s absolutely a bug, not a game mechanic. So yes, I’d say there is an issue of design there, or at least implementation.
I’m not arguing that it’s not nice to have skill optimisations that abuse coding or technical limitations to improve performance.
I’m merely saying that those aren’t things that should be encouraged for deliberate implementation and are not good design. (The very fact that it is through an issue of coding or tech should be enought to indicate that)
Correct, which is why I said it’s ok for people to subjectively like it.
And yes whilst my opinion that it shouldn’t be praised and reimplemented is also subjective, the fact that it was poor design and unintentional is objective.
Well that is your opinion and one many share, and not to discredit it, but there is a good reason why seal twisting was a big part of TBC, and it was alot to do with the fact that there just wasn’t anything else going on.
It’s easy to be the peak of something when your competition is essentially press 2 buttons every 12s. Don’t get me wrong, I do like the simplicity of seal and judgement Paladin, but it isn’t winning any awards for amazing rotational design either.
I don’t think we should really praise using weapon swing timers to abuse a technical issue that allowed players to temporarily have 2 seals active at once as anything special. Yes it was an expression of skill, but mostly that skill was “have you heard about this interaction, have you downloaded the addon, and do you have decent enough ms to do it”.
I’d personally prefer better designed ability implementation instead, indeed ones with an expression of skill, but not one that abuses a technical limitation or bug.
In an ideal world you wouldn’t have 2 free globals every ~3.6s to seal twist, and those abilities would outweigh the benefit from twisting even if possible.
Too strong in pvp, so they nerfed it.
Meanwhile, in the Hall of Shadowpriests…
Yep still dont have threat issues. Imma tank i dont need to be doing top dmg.
it takes about 6 seconds to reach the target at its old speed, now it’s around 8 if the target is stationary.
With a 20-second duration at the old speed that leaves 14 sec of ticks, with a 10-second at the new speed and duration it is 2 seconds of uptime.
With the new iteration In PvP if the player steps back a few times it does 0 damage, in PvE if the tank moves the boss it is 0 damage.
He is being hyperbolic but it is around an ~85% nerf in PvE unless you are in melee range which many mechanics prevent. It’s hard to quantify but I no longer run Living Flame in PvP or PvE, it feels terrible to use and many times does 1-2 ticks and fizzles or nothing at all.
It needed a nerf but it is total dogwater now and they give random stuff like molten armor applying impact? If you run molten armor in PvP you die instantly to a single opener or charge MS+Auto. Not sure where they are going with Mage but it feels terrible compared to Era or Retail.
Fair point. Never seen anyone that dislikes seal twisting point that out, so that’s a refreshing take, even though I disagree with the opinion you have as a result.
In my idealized version of the Vanilla/TBC era ret (for which the seal and judgement system is unique and representative of), you would remove that line of the tooltip and make it apparent to the player in the tooltip of the seal abilities that they will linger for small window of time, allowing the paladin to benefit from two seals simultaneously.
My problem with adding in new buttons isn’t really that I don’t want more buttons to press - more than 2 buttons every 12 seconds would be awesome - it is that there is nothing that distinguishes seal & judgement ret + random extra buttons that do X damage every X seconds from the whack a mole simulator that is WOTLK Ret, which is the worst iteration of the class in my opinion (none of the abilities interact with each other, no reactive gameplay, and even less expression of skill than OG Vanilla ret if you take into account consumes, one off on uses and trinkets)…any class that can be executed at 95% efficacy with a cast sequence macro is a failure in design in my view.
IF blizzard could add new abilities or even passives that complement the seal and judgement ret, that would be awesome. But just hitching new abilities onto the class that have no interaction with class mechanics feels bad to play. That was what blizzard did to ret in WOTLK before reworking the class entirely. If nonsensically giving a class more buttons to press every X seconds worked well, paladin would never have gotten holy power in Cata.
Seal twisting was in fact not intended, but existed as a consequence of spell batching. Likewise, it was not fully tapped into or fully understood by the community until being popularized on private servers well after WOTLK. I think this was a rare case of an unintended mechanic being the solution they didn’t know they needed. If it’s mechanics were more apparent via tooltip - and you have the hard coded linger like blizzard did in TBC Classic - I don’t believe it would have half the hate it has now. Yeah it’s not for everyone, just as Holy Power (combo point) paladin isn’t for everyone. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing.
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