Scale Valor in mythic+

You left?
Why are you in the forums? That is just … twisted.

Necro - March 2021

I think this is a fair necro. The OP highlighted flaws in the valor system a year ago and the person who posted a year later is still feeling those. I guess a necro is appropriate sometimes!

Anyway, I actually think Valor is a great addition to the game and uncapping it was the right move. I do think that scaling it up would provide more incentive to run higher keys over lower keys, but I think that maybe the cost to upgrade lower ranks should be reduced to keep things relatively consistent.

Having a lot of players who want to run +2 to +5 keys really quickly for valor was super helpful for my alt, but I’m a 3k player and already know how to play. I’d imagine this is probably not a great environment for newer players or those who don’t have high rating. Hard carries like that aren’t a great environment to learn and soon you find yourself with an inflated rating and a key.

I know the game enough to know what key my characters are capable of, but this isn’t necessarily obvious to someone with less experience in M+. They aren’t likely to drop them and are probably going to have a bad time if they’re only experienced enough to run a +5 but now find themselves with a +15 key.

All that being said, we know M+ and gearing in general needs work. Blizzard has hinted at changes coming in the next expac. My hope is that they’re transparent with these changes, offering the community enough time to consider them, and they’re also thoughtful about them. A lot of feedback was given going into Shadowlands for various systems that was ultimately not taken into consideration until 9.1 at the earliest, if not later.

I don’t think another round of systems shoved in our faces with the players being told it’s what they want until Blizzard ultimately realizes it’s not what they want and changes things will do much good for the game at this point.

Fingers crossed though!

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That’s funny. Do you actually think 2500 is equivalent to mythic raid bosses? And 3000 is equal to a mythic raid clear?

I could see an argument for 278 upgrades at 3k, maybe, but 2500 is WAY too low.

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I could see 3600 being that Mark for the mythic clear. That’s the mark for ~0.1%. Problem is that group of key pushers are generally CE anyway. /shrug

I haven’t raided, but what would you think the first wing of Mythic Raid would equate to in M+? Might be even lower now because they keep hitting it with the nerf sledge hammer.

Right, so I would have no issue with people regularly accessing 284 gear having an opportunity to fill in gaps with a M+ upgrade.

I will admit this is hard to quantify because there are so many variables that make raiding and M+ fundamentally different. I would probably guess somewhere in the 2800-3k range. While the first 2 bosses aren’t very hard, the 3rd and 4th ramp up significantly. In all 4 cases, the individual responsibilities aren’t so bad, but mistakes from a single player can have severe consequences for the whole group. That obviously happens in M+ also, but can be much more easily controlled for in a group of 5 than a group of 20.

Conceding this is all subjective, my personal experience suggests that 2500 is just a bit easier than heroic, but generally comparable. I finished 3000 weeks ago, but only just killed the 4th mythic boss this week. If I raided as frequently as I did M+ while I was pushing, and with a stronger team, I suspect I would be further along, so I think 3k is compares well with the first half or so of mythic progress. I could try to look for the progress percentage of 4/11 and find the M+ score that matches that percentage to try for a slightly more objective comparison. Maybe I’ll look for that later today and see how my 2800-3k estimate holds up.

The nerfs coming I’m pretty sure are just from Lihuvim on, so that shouldn’t affect the first wing at all.

My guild is starting to time +28s while progressing on Mythic Reg, so it’s probably pretty accurate.

Though you aren’t wrong. There is also the possibility that in doing 20+ keys which I prefer, even though it may not be the most efficient in terms of time/valor, it would still have the potential to net high valor without me having to run content at a lower level than I would prefer.

GL getting into those 15 keys with your 250 alt when theres 270 brainiacs applying

Scaling valor would be nice but not having a valor cap at the start of a season would mean I would be able to use valor to upgrade non-bis items at the start of a season and have enough valor for bis when I get them. This would make it so I wouldn’t have to re-farm valor or wouldn’t avoid upgrading non-bis gear.

I have trouble equating the two. I actually think that if you can get to 3k on your own, without carries, you probably are capable of a Mythic Raid clear. By that point you know how to press your buttons, you’re well aware of what buttons you have, you know how to move out of the bad, and you know how to work with your team.

The only key difference is that you only have 5 people who need to know what they’re doing vs. 20 people who need to know what they’re doing. Right now that extra ilvl is a bonus for raid size and nothing more.

Going up past 3k doesn’t really do much except test your DPS. Most of the mechanics one-shot you in the +20 to +22 range so you either dodge them and/or use a defensive, or you don’t make it.

I guess another key difference is that Mythic Raids get a whole new set of fights to learn and perfect while M+ runs the same dungeons we’ve run all expac but with a new seasonal affix. I think Season 4 will shake this up though, and that’s going to be a really good thing!

Anyway, I think you can actually compare 3k to Mythic Raid and giving equivalent gear for clears at that range would probably be fine…

HOWEVER!

M+ is it’s own thing so who the heck cares about gear? Giving out higher gear in M+ would only serve to shift the ceiling a bit further… and what does that accomplish? There is no need for higher gear in M+, that’s the beauty of it. You cap out on gear and the rest of it becomes how well can you play and execute mechanics.

I would be happy if they just completely separated M+ and Raid gear entirely. Then maybe my guild would stop harassing the few of us who actually care about our rating for carries all season long >.<

I wholeheartedly disagree. 3k is the floor of key pushing (this season). 20s just don’t have any bite this season. 15-20 deaths in some keys is still a win because of the hyper inflated power.

None of this is true. Not until you get to 25+ does everyone have to be on the same page. The timers are just too lenient to force people to pull their head out of their rear or turn off Netflix on the second monitor.

This isn’t true either. I’d really like to see how your runs are going. Sure, some mechanics 1 shot some classes, by an large, you don’t need defensive rotations or avoidance and in a lot of cases you don’t need healer CDs or tank CDs. You may not be intending tk paint the white knuckle wall to wall action, but that’s the implication I get from your comment.

Dodging deadly thrust, as an example, is the bare minimum level of awareness. Not standing in the elder staghorns falling stars is another story altogether. 5 stacks of bolster or a raging fort 23 and now you actually do stand to be 1 shot.

This is incorrect. The only players who stand any chance of capping out gear are CE raiders. That’s why having a way to get 285 (at least in the slots available from the current raid) is important for m+. I’d be totally fine with the pvp gear solution. There are very few players who do super high level at all 3 end game progs and the argument about gear sets and bag bloat falls on deaf ears for me.

Scale the gear in dungeons. Make it like the 8.3 items that were zone specific. All fine with me. But requiring the amount of time required to get CE on fairly early clear and then also enough time to really learn dungeons to be even remotely competitive just ain’t it for me.

I don’t see much value in arguing this or the rest of your points. It’s one of those experience things and I just haven’t found much difference between the runs after +20. You do the right things or you get deaded. The only thing I agree with is the timers being lenient, absolutely, but fundamentally it’s till the same general thing.

I suppose in that CE can take that gear and push further in M+… which yea, that’s a bit silly.

What I’m getting at though is that it shouldn’t matter. There’s a gear ceiling and why M+ is good is that you push as far as you can when you’re no longer getting gear from it. It’s about skill, not out gearing the content.

You can’t out gear an infinitely scaling system. The end points for rewards are arbitrarily chosen (at best). If everyone was scaled down to 272, I’d take your point. They aren’t. This gives someone a very real advantage if they are CE, one that I’d like to see removed.

Fwiw, MDI has gear scaling so that every competitor is a specific ilvl to prevent advantages. You don’t get the Meta from who has the best end of raid drops for this reason. Same thing for AWC. Everyone is scaled tk the same ilvl, then and only then is it skill > all.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying, and that’s a good thing.

Except… there’s two caps right now. If you’re a M+ only player your cap is 272. If you Mythic Raid, it’s higher. The only thing that changes is how far you can push. It feels like you shouldn’t be able to get better gear from raids and go higher in M+, they should be their own thing. Still though, whatever the gear cap is, it’s generally unrelated to how far you can push.

I get Blizzard wants to promote playing different aspects of the game, and I think that’s not a bad thing… but M+, Raids, and PvP have all evolved into their own niches and it does seem a bit silly for the best gear for M+ to come from not doing M+. This could probably change down the line.

Whatever you feel about the breakpoint in rating for when a M+ player is capable of Mythic Raids, it’s kind of irrelevant. The only difference is how many people are in your group and it doesn’t make sense to dictate power rewards in one over the other based on that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That wasn’t the point. We were specifically discussing when it would be appropriate for a m+ only player to be able to upgrade their existing gear to 285 with valor. I offered up 3600, which isn’t a self serving answer, cited the reasons I believe this is appropriate.

Seems you may have missed the discussion.

I didn’t say it was self-serving. You offered up 3600 and I said 3000 is probably fine. You disagree and that’s fine, but my point here is that it just shouldn’t matter. M+ is not really about gear at all, it’s just a thing that’s there until you hit a specific point, then to go further gear stops mattering.

It doesn’t matter what your ilvl is, the only complaint is that someone can get a higher ilvl than you can for M+. I’m saying that maybe this shouldn’t be the case. I don’t need Mythic Raid gear because I have no intention of Mythic Raiding. The current M+ only cap of 272 (275 w/ vault) is fine enough for me.

Objectively false and categorically uncharitable reading of the situation. I’m tired of m+ being the red headed step child of wow. I’m over the pvp vs pve when it should be raid vs m+ vs pvp.

I could not care less about what other players have or don’t have. I care that I’m being knee capped for not raiding. Get it straight.

You really look at Cinderella at the beginning of the tail and say, why are you angry, you have clothes and food who cares if your step sisters have better clothes and food then you. That you’re treated unfairly for no reason.

I’ve done keys at 23 on 2 separate tanks. 1 is aggressively easier. I think that being able to time a couple 20s and some 19s isn’t a mark at which you’ve accomplished anything. You don’t give big pvp weapons for 1500. And 3k is m+ 1500.

I’m not sure how you read my post as me saying M+ should be a lesser aspect of WoW, but boy are you sure ready to throw out some strong, emphatic words to decry my point of view, lol.

Maybe re-read it again? Raid gear shouldn’t be the best for M+, but M+ gear shouldn’t be best for raiding either.

However…

Whether the gear cap is 272, 275, or 285, it does not matter. There will always be a gear cap, and high key levels (especially those you want to play) are not going to rewards you gear. You hit whatever cap exists and then you just do more gooder. Who who gives a crap what that cap is? They could set the cap at ilvl 200 for all I care and it wouldn’t change my enjoyment of M+. All the fun happens long after runs stop dropping useful gear, and that’s a good thing!

Good for you I guess, but if you think 1500 pvp rating is equivalent to 3k M+ you’re nuts. Unless things have drastically changed since BfA with regards to rating, you show up and you can get to 1500/1600 fairly easily. It’s a bit more work to get to 1850, but you can’t really compare the two.

And also… again, who gives a crap? PvP is now nicely separate from PvE. You get your rewards but they’re only really great for PvP. It has no impact on anything else.

Just like M+ and Raiding should be.