I genuinely think what you’ll achieve is voidform gets removed 100% in 10.0, but it is unplayable garbage for everyone, even those who in some way like voidform, for the 2 years prior to that. Which is what it’s currently shaping up to be.
Adding a button back is not the same as completely reworking a spec, and that took them 6 months.
I hate being a slug for the first 10 seconds. Just so Voidform can shine. If they want me in Voidform, then PUT ME IN VOIDFORM. As Nyelle will tell you, we could move plenty fast back in Wrath, without the shackles of Voidform. I’m fine with the down period in between Voidforms, as crack addicts have to come down at some point. But do NOT force me to be a slug for so long before I get to ACTUALLY enter the action. If we got our Void Eruption nuke within the first 2-3 GCDs of combat, we wouldn’t have quite this insane amount of hate.
I agree. 10 seconds is too long without Lingering Insanity.
Detailed feedback from Publik:
Worth watching the entire video.
I really don’t like the defeatist attitude going on here, especially when we’re pretending like Void Form will be fixed between now and prepatch but somehow it’s too late for Shadow Orbs.
It’s been 4 years and several months of alpha and Void Form keeps getting worse. At what point do you give up?
Wasn’t shadow always a ramp damage design? From classic to about half of cata. Then in mop and wod you had your burst windows. Then legion bfa being ramp. It’s not the fact it’s ramp damage that many priest dislike. It’s the amount of time associated with current ramp+ borrowed power. Correct me if I’m wrong but that is how I remember it
Back then there wasn’t really a “lense” like state for us to exist in, that filters our output. I guess you could kind of argue the shadow orb “buff” was, but it also was a flat buff with a fixed time and being able to use it wasn’t contingent on our actions.
While shadow didn’t have burst until dragon soul, I wouldn’t categorise what came before as ramp. More just sustain. It’s that added filter of voidform, making anything that is not voidform inherently worse, that creates the current problems. Compounded by how little we can interact with or control voidform, especially when we’re incentivised to always enter it as soon as it’s available.
Here is an example that should illustrate the difference.
Pre Legion damage in the form of dots (Mind Flay, Mind Insanity, Shadow Word: Pain, Vampiric Touch, Devouring Plague)
Tic damage numbers.
100, 100, 100, 100, 100, 100
Post Void Form Revamp
All damage numbers
20, 40, 60, 80, 100, 100
Not exactly like that but you get the idea.
With Void Form, you start really low. Then over time you start coming closer and closer to “par” numbers compared the rest of classes DPS balancing. But by the time you get there, literally minutes have passed. Then anytime you get interrupted prematurely via moving, intermissions, silenced or any CC etc. Your damage gets reset again.
So something like this…
20, 40, 60 (had to move or interrupted etc.) 20, 40, 60.
So what you can see is that with this ramp up model, it takes you a long time to do 100% damage potential and each time you mess up for any reason, you have to start over again from the beginning. Whereas before Void Form, all your damage was 100% damage potential at all times just limited by its duration aka DOT duration. All Void Form damage is limited by its ramp duration which will never go above 100% potential.
There are more / other issues but that gives you a nice and quick glance.
The biggest crime of legion BFA is honestly what’s happened to mind blast. Going from one of the hardest hitting base castable spells to just another insanity generator to power voidform.
If I had the reigns, but couldn’t remove voidform, the first thing I’d do is move around whatever damage I had to so that mind blast (Both in and out of VF) felt chunky and impactful again.
Having access to a spell thats just outright good of its own accord would do a lot for how it feels to play both in and out of VF, and move a lot of shadows power back into its base toolkit and away from VF itself.
I’d probably absolutely curb stomp flay in the process, since in order to add damage in one place you have to take it away somewhere else, but honestly I think I’d rather do that than have dots be weak baseline too… Also the less damage flay does the more mobility we have so I’d call that a win.
I think Mind Flay should NOT grant any Insanity.
In MoP & WoD Mind flay didn’t give Orbs, but it did give orbs randomly in Cata and it never felt good trying to “fish” for Orbs in Cata. If Mind Flay didn’t grant Insanity, then that opens up more movement options and windows to use utility as your only loosing damage and not resources casting Mind Flay.
What are your thoughts on that change?
All of shadows utility spells on live with the exception of shadow mend currently generate the same amount of insanity per GCD as flay. Dispels, shields, ve, mass dispel. CC doesn’t but cc is something you historically don’t get to compare to damage spells in that way. Point being flay isn’t currently in a position where not casting it to do something to help your raid feels particularly bad.
Often in PvP you see people using dispel as their filler, as it generates the same amount of insanity, is generally more useful than the damage flay might’ve dealt, and can’t be interrupted.
Also I think having rotational spells that don’t generate insanity just feels weird in a granular bar based resource. I’m not against flay generating a token amount, just so it can say “Im helping” in a Ralph Wiggum accent, but zero just feels off.
I was about to say lol.
I’m looking on my priest right now to see what spells grant insanity.
And as you stated that Dispels, shields etc. etc. don’t grant any.
And yes your right when you say…
But if i’m starting to pop off in PvP or 5 man and I want to use dispel and shields to help my team out while i’m in Void Form, I have to seriously consider using GCD’s to cast those spells as I am not loosing a GCD worth of damage, I could loose multiple GCD worth if it shortens my Void Form enough to end way sooner then otherwise.
I would argue that is not “fun” and “engaging” gameplay and its just bad game design and frustrating to deal with and regretful every time you do or don’t make that choice.
Anyone else (unless they are in their CD dmg window) only loose the time it takes to cast those utility spells, not any more compounding time because of it.
It’s not written on the spells. You have a passive towards the end of your spell book that I’ve forgotten the name of. Hallucinations I think.
As I stated, pvpers including myself often outright replace mind flay with dispel for prolonged periods of time, because it still generates insanity, is likely being more impactful than damage, can’t be kicked, and can be done on the move.
Okay I see that now.
Hallucinations
Your successful Dispel Magic, Mass Dispel, Purify Disease, Vampiric Embrace, and Power Word: Shield casts generate 6 Insanity during combat.
Alright I tested the rest. I guess all non GCD abilities don’t grant any insanity but since they off GCD its okay I suppose.
So fair enough.
Still a stupid band-aid mechanic having to add small resource gen to utility spells.
ugg this whole Void Form mechanic is just nonsensical lol.
Either way, now we’ve laid that to rest, agree that flay should generate a token amount of insanity? If not for actual in voidform damage, but to smooth out generation in shadowform so you aren’t just waiting for mind blast whilst being 5-10 off eruption.
I mean i’m not going to agree that its right.
I will agree that its more wrong to remove it in “this” iteration.
But I would love to see it going so I don’t have to get all spammy spammy with it. Maybe have a talent that lets you either opt out or opt in the resource gain and instead shift the resources around to get more from Mind Blast or w/e.
So to keep this clunky mechanic “working” yea keep it.
But fix the clunky mechanic and you shoulden’t need it.
Could you elaborate? I think I have a rough idea what you mean but I wouldn’t mind some clarification / explanation before attempting a response.
I don’t want to beat my mind flay key and my void bolt key like they owe me money lol.
I want a nice flow that doesn’t go crazy off the charts the longer I play / maintain void form.
I don’t wan to have to smash my buttons as they light up and stop casting mind flay so i can smash my bolt button etc. All that time detracts me from taking in the entire scope of the battlefield and finding ways to use my utility to the max and being a team player. I don’t want to tunnel my keyboard. ugg its just awful.
Edit:
Wack a mole.
That’s what I was thinking of but couldn’t remember it. Its like playing wack a mole faster and faster. I don’t want to play a mini game regulated to my keyboard buttons. I want to play the mind game of the battlefield and plan out my moves and actions vs the environment, not my keyboard.
I think in a cooldown driven spec with multiple short cooldowns that’s sort of inevitable. Flay is just fodder, to be cut short whenever anything of higher priority becomes available. Even in WoD CoP mind blast was essentially void bolt in terms of a drop everything and press me button on a very short cd.
Personally what you’re describing is that the reward / payoff for shadow requires consistency. At least if you didn’t blast on cd in wod you still had the amount of orbs you had, and after your next blast you’d have one more, and those orbs would still be worth the same. I get that. I still wouldn’t go as far as to say it let me “consider the battlefield”, since it was just as spammy and hectic as it is now if you were playing the spec to make every GCD count, but I do understand that desire to at least have the capacity to be more deliberate and considered without feeling like the specs mechanic is actively trying to rush you.
Didn’t have to be.
I used that time to drop out and heal and use utility etc.
Like for example:
I que up for 5 mans and Bg’s and I often only use Mind Flay as a snare or if I had no other options.
But usually I would dot up my targets and toss my burst into the kill target. Then I would shield, grip, feather, prom, SW:D bounce prom around the keep my group up as I go in as a healer but i’m healing via killing targets faster and swapping in and out of Shadow From to top off tank etc.
I didn’t do this just at the end of expansions, I started do this as soon as I got the feel of the dungeon and PvP BG i’m in and understated when the major damage comes in, the breaks, the problem bosses etc.
I started doing this back in Wrath and continued every expansion after (though it was a bit longer in cata as cata 5 mans hurt a lot in the beginning)
Edit:
It became very effective when SW:D backlash returned mana.
As i could just SW:D on CD to keep my mana up and swap back and forth lighting up mobs and spam healing tank etc.