I just want to tell you, I loled IRL.
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Pretty sure they attempted to return home in between the end of Wc3 and the beginning of TBC. Which was iirc a 5 year or so period and were rejected. Yeah that might seem silly ebcause Lor’themar opened talks with Sylvanas 5 years later but that was one political leader reaching out to another political leader and lor’themars old CO as well. Versus random civvies and military member returning home to their loved ones only to be greated by horror as they see an undead approach. I believe the blood elf starting zone made it apparent that many blood elves were uneasy about being allied with the undead and over-all horde.
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But does that timeline even match up to Blood Elves reclaiming and rebuilding part of Silvermoon?
During this same time period I am not sure Quel’thalas as we know it at the point of it’s introduction to us joining the Horde existed as an entity to shun anyone.
So again I find issue w the line, and even if that’s the explanation she still said once they were raised they were shunned and Velonara for example was raised presumably after she fell in defense of Silvermoon, and Scourge controlled undead would make sense to be shunned.
I would also add that Blood Elves kept an ambassador in UC royal quarter next to Sylvanas, one of the short stories where Magni came to talk about Azeroth had Sylvanas’s personal mage pointed out to be a Blood Elf, and Blood Elves were shown as a type of loyalist in Orgrimmar in the aftermath of Sylvanas leaving the Horde, also the BE heritage quest reinforces that BEs honored Sylvanas’s sacrifice so of course they’d honor everyone else’s the whole heritage quest was about honoring the fallen.
If the Forsaken formed at the end of WC3 then Darkfallen DRs have been w them since then, they wouldn’t have been coming to Silvermoon in that interim bcz they found their home w the Forsaken. I don’t feel like BEs had a chance to shun the free willed Dark Rangers because during that period and by that time DRs followed Sylvanas getting their free will and became Forsaken, and BEs were doing their own thing rebuilding / fighting to reclaim their kingdom, then the next time they do interact it’s as allies so the only time they would be “shunned” would have been under the scourge which seems to imo go w/o saying.
just another episode of blizzard being lazy and making the player fill in all the blanks and holes left in the plot. really wish they would actually explain the history of the world instead of leaving like 75% of it blank.
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It’s a vampire paladin! So we have them now.
Vampadin right here:
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Bigotry is rarely if ever rational. The innate “ick” reaction was stronger than the logic of needing all hands on deck.
I highly doubt it is intended this way. I’m sure she meant once she was free.
All of this being AFTER they joined the horde and only select blood elves. A culture isn’t a monolith. Some blood elves being sylvanas fans doesn’t mean absolutely no disgust or resentment exists among the population especially among the civillian population.
Yes they honored their dead. The undead to them to a lot of people weren’t seen as the same as their dead. Not seen as the same people. Just a monstrosity walking around with their loved ones face. Those who fell stayed fallen. This was a belief by survivng humans and is part of the forsakens initial rejection from survivors and stormwind.
It could’ve been some tried to return home after they beat back the scourge but were rejected. Sementing their relationship with Sylvanas and the forsaken. They didn’t truly feel forsaken until after that rejected. Were the “good” undead called forsaken in wc3? I can’t remember. Seems they’d all of had to attempted relations with the living before the name forsaken could’ve semented and that applies to humans and elves.
While true that doesn’t apply to Blood Elves.
If that’s what you think of Blood Elves then it’s proven wrong because as soon as Forsaken showed themselves as a group of free willed undead they accepted their help and they built and maintained an Alliance so much so that Sylvanas was still greatly honored as a hero, and Dark Rangers post Sylvanas remarked how Sin’dorei and Forsaken were their kin. I doubt they would have such strong words of affection if it was this picture you’re painting, Blood Elves are not humans / Alliance races which align w this narrative you are speaking about.
Once she was free she was Forsaken, they were Forsaken, the Forsaken in no point in time petitioned to join Quel’thalas they broke from scourge control and became Forsaken.
So not Blood Elves. Because Blood Elves upon encountering the Forsaken willing to help, decided to trust them and build a relationship moving forward, literally the opposite of what you’re talking about and you’re getting it from humans.
This seems like speculation while also basing it on assuming there was a home to go back to. When Forsaken got free will Quel’thalas was a long way from being to the point we see it in BC still.
In the case of the Elves their kingdom was literally nearly wiped out. What would they have been reaching out to? The scourge was rampant, the heritage quest has us breaking into our own Sunwell to destroy it and then making a get away as fast as we can. By the time Silvermoon and the survivors could establish themselves again when they encountered the Forsaken (the free willed undead) they did not shun them like the Humans did.
The line is just an odd line and they could have chosen better wording tbh.
That applies to all sentient life.
If you play through and explore the be starting area some show racism to both undead and trolls. And Thalassians were notably racist against human for a long time. That doesn’t magically disappear with 90% of your population. There is even a /silly or two that says how the blood elves find undead disgusting.
I’m not big on arguing on the point because I don’t care enough about the nuances. This is just my point of view. However the Government opened up talks with the forsaken 5 years after the end of Wc3. That doesn’t have anything to do with the average Quel’thalas citizen reacting to a random undead they encountered. If you saw a rotting corpse after having just been invaded by rotting corpses and it tried to talk to you would you really try diplomacy? By the time of TBC the rumors of sentient non hostile undead had probably reached much of Quel’thalas and thus they were more open to talks. But it’s still perfectly rational to react in horror or terror of a corpse of your loved one trying to talk to you. It was just too fresh. Right after WC3? Was probably a bad idea same for the human undead as well.
Forsaken wasn’t just made up out of nowhere though? The term came after humans attempted to reconnect with living loves ones and were rejected. It can likely be assumed albiet I agree not stated explicitly that the undead elves did the exact same thing. They both tried to connect to living relatives and they got rejected. Hence the name “Forsaken”. The Forsaken never tried to join Quel’thalas but we have no reason to believe some undead thallasians didn’t try to rejoin Quel’thalas before declaring themselves forsaken.
Yes, 5 years later and as made explicit in the BE starting zone not all of them were super fond of the idea. But the leadership was quite pragmatic and willing to open talks. But the diplomacy of a leader is not to be expected of your average citicen or soldier. That’s why we have leaders and diplomats in the first place.
Let me ask you a question: Why would the undead elves call themselves forsaken? The name isn’t a name it has a very important fundamental meaning to them and their relationship with the rest of the world. Why would undead elves align themselves, and identify with a term that wouldn’t apply because either A: They didn’t try to reconnect with Quel’thalas or B: They did and it went well.
True. But human undead found survivors. Family memebers who yet lived and they got rejected. Hence forsaken. Stormwind also refused to come to their aid and rejected them as well.
Survivors. This is precisely what happened with the humans.
Well this is true. By the time of TBC which takes place roughly 5 years after the end of WC3 the blood elves were explicitly willing to deal with the forsaken. We have no idea of before. We do know in vanilla wow Quel’thalas was locked off and not available to any outsiders including undead. But this could also just be their efforts to rebuild.
I agree. I’m forced to make several inferences in order for it to make sense. If you take everything at absolute face value than yeah it becomes nonsensical but that’s because blizzard doesn’t tell us most of the lore they just imply and suggest it.
Before BEs became aware of Forsaken they wouldn’t have a frame of reference for undead not aligned w the Scourge I agree.
But weren’t the Forsaken also carving out their own area and also fighting the scourge in their zones at the time BEs would have been fighting to reclaim their zones from the Scourge. In other words they were busy as well and I am unsure if they were just wandering the woods or randomly encountered like you put it, on average prior to Forsaken sending help to Quel’thalas the undead wandering the woods / being encountered would have been Scourge.
I wasn’t under the impression there was a Quel’thalas for them to try to rejoin at that point, wouldn’t they have just assumed their homeland was in ruin / they were Forsaken in that regard?
Humans seemed to have survivors (Southshore?) and or fled to other kingdoms, but on average Elves as a race were almost wiped out.
I understand the skepticism after almost being wiped out by the undead. My only point is that they still saw the bigger picture and were willing to trust the Forsaken as opposed to how humans reacted which was to reject Forsaken relations.
I agree w you BEs had good reason to be skeptical at first and uneasy because their only frame of reference for undead would have been the scourge, but I object that they had the same reaction as humans who reacted harshly and negatively to them.
I mean it seems entirely possible they thought their race was wiped out / also felt they couldn’t go back.
At the exact moment in time Sylvanas created the term Forsaken what did they know of what happened to any survivors or if there was any? There home was destroyed and their entire population wiped out possibly or thought to be seems valid to feel Forsaken in that context. The term Forsaken was also created before anyone tried to reach out to Humans too wasn’t it? So they identified w the name before the event that saw them being rejected / shunned from humans?
I just think in Silvermoons case it was quite literally wiped out until it was reclaimed by the survivors and I’m not sure if it’s said if prior to the survivors being able to re establish any sense of foothold or security if they were even aware of the Forsaken, if they weren’t which I’m assuming since like you said so many BEs seem shocked to see undead helping them in Ghostlands I would assume that their first contact / reaching out is when we also see them accepting Forsaken help.
In which case if that’s so I just feel the line is a bit odd overall
It’s probably one of the most popular threads, period. People have liked the San’layn for a very long time, and Blizzard really should add them to the game.
I’d prefer an allied race, but customization options would be nice too.
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That’s true! I was sad when I saw megathreads pop up but no San’layn. Granted, that was just when the high elf & Vulpera one was up. I figured: “Well, if no one else is going to do it, I will.”
Putting in the effort it deserves because of the neat lore behind these vampires winded up really benefitting it because people loved the visuals & explanations. I’m glad I did, for the most part, despite a few bad incidents because of it.
I’m pretty excited because now we can suggest ideas on how to expand it. I hope someone asks in a Q & A if they will accept ideas on expansion of the undead elf customization for vampyr too.
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One of the obvious first things they need to address imo is the fact the eyes are attached to the skin tone and there’s only one pale skin tone.
A bit of a sore spot for me too if I’m honest bcz I still don’t know why they didn’t expand on some of the diverse skin tones they added in 9.0 BEs for example have 14 options, 10 are shades of white, and there isn’t much nuance / varying undertones and options in the 4 options we have that got added, there’s undertones and more that can be done to expand those as well.
Which diving back to the new undead option (sorry for the side track but it felt pertinent) I’d like to think there would be more than just one extremely pale undead skin tone.
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A pale darker skinned tone would be very much appreciated.
Not to mention tones across the spectrum.
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This a billion percent, yes, I agree. It should take priority before any other customization, in my opinion. I hope that’s addressed in any future Q & A as well. Perhaps a thread in the Community Council could be proposed on this issue!
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I think regardless of Darkfallen fan or DR fan or just wanting more diverse options adding those diverse options is a win for everyone.
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I totally agree that the red eyes should first be separated from the skintone, then a darker version of it should be added and then finally the red eyes should also work with all of the skintones that we already have available to us like any other eye color does because personally I already miss my super tanned California girl look. 
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I’m sure there’s a lot of Darkfallen/DR/San’layn what ever the fandom names are at this point fans that would appreciate more diverse skin tone options to be added besides just this one pale one
Making the eye choice independent helps in that regard too I’m sure, then on another note we could also mix our eye colors on the options which DKs should also be allowed to have more eye color options.
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Yeah, I agree entirely. All fans should be represented, we’re all excited about this stuff. Not to mention, there’s a problem in the goth community for representation where BIPOC folks, from my observations (not speaking for or over anyone, just what I’ve noticed!) are incredibly underrepresented and some feel as though they do not belong (based on what I’ve heard), which breaks my heart into thousands of pieces.
Stuff like this certainly isn’t helping. I hope they address this soon.
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Catch me up - what has been the overall mood in here over the past couple of days?
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Hungry for more death.
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