For those asking what they'd bring, I encourage you to explore the hard work we've put into explaining this via the first post. I've outlined everything there, and I'd appreciate if that was looked at before questions come along that highlight the lack of having done so.
...Also, Death Knights and Demon Hunters. They originally were thought to be exclusively evil. As it turns out, they were not. A redemption story is not out of reach for intelligent undead like the forsaken.
Why not undead elves as playable race with exclusive san'layn and dark ranger classes
Arron explained that point perfectly, not to mention we see San'layn as different classes within ICC itself.
10/01/2018 10:45 AMPosted by
Arron
Dark Rangers are more founded in lore than the San'layn?
Strongly disagree.
If anything, the class restrictions you are concerned about would be exacerbated by playable dark rangers. By definition, these are undead that have only ever been hunters. A playable San'layn race would be able to roll a rogue, mage, or warlock while still remaining true to their devious nature. A San'layn hunter would also effectively be a dark ranger and could be widely treated as such. Warriors and monks would be granted to give them two options for tanking and priest would probably be thrown in as the second healing class.
I agree that Dark Rangers would be limited by classes too, but I disagree that San'layn should be warlocks, monks, or priests. Even their teleportation spells are blood-based and they've
never used the Light or fel magic. To change that would feel very silly and dilute their identity quite a bit. A 'devious nature' isn't a racial theme. We already have several races that could apply to. How many elf magi do we need?
I guess I'd just rather see Dark Rangers. I think they're cooler and would be a better fit for the Horde.
10/01/2018 11:08 AMPosted by
Aurael
10/01/2018 10:45 AMPosted by
Arron
Dark Rangers are more founded in lore than the San'layn?
Strongly disagree.
If anything, the class restrictions you are concerned about would be exacerbated by playable dark rangers. By definition, these are undead that have only ever been hunters. A playable San'layn race would be able to roll a rogue, mage, or warlock while still remaining true to their devious nature. A San'layn hunter would also effectively be a dark ranger and could be widely treated as such. Warriors and monks would be granted to give them two options for tanking and priest would probably be thrown in as the second healing class.
I agree that Dark Rangers would be limited by classes too, but I disagree that San'layn should be warlocks, monks, or priests. Even their teleportation spells are blood-based and they've never used the Light or fel magic. To change that would feel very silly and dilute their identity quite a bit. A 'devious nature' isn't a racial theme. We already have several races that could apply to. How many elf magi do we need?
I guess I'd just rather see Dark Rangers. I think they're cooler and would be a better fit for the Horde.
There are many ideas in this thread regarding how the San'layn's use of blood magic could be baked into racial abilities.
Monk is sort of lore breaking, granted, but it is given to certain allied races in order to ensure they can adequately fulfill essential roles like tanking or healing. Void elves shouldn't be monks, but it's a concession that has to be made.
Warlocks are just as much shadow users as they are fel users. Play an affliction lock and you'll hardly, if ever, actually tap into the fel. Priests are canon as we are increasingly being made aware that undead can, and will, utilize the force of the light. There is a death knight in canon that uses it, Alonsus Faol the undead is a priest, and then there's the recent development with Calia Menethil becoming a light-infused zombie. It hurts to use, but for undead that either don't care or masochistically enjoy the pain this isn't an issue. The shadow aspect of being a priest is self-explanatory and needs no further justification.
Finally, the proposed designs for San'layn outright downplay their elven nature. For all the talk of "elf fatigue" that this topic elicits, I personally feel dark rangers would be more egregious offenders. They're just blood elf models with red eyes and a skin texture nearly identical to what can be chosen for a blood elf death knight. Dark ranger should be a class, not a race itself. The San'layn blood prince model uses the male night elf skeleton but also has a completely unique texture. There's a much larger wellspring of what Blizzard can do to make the concept more unique and further differentiate it from typical elves if they work off the foundation of San'layn rather than Dark Rangers. Nobody's saying they
have to be elf magi; I think the idea of a vampiric rogue is pretty lore-fitting.
10/01/2018 11:18 AMPosted by
Arron
Finally, the proposed designs for San'layn outright downplay their elven nature. For all the talk of "elf fatigue" that this topic elicits, I personally feel dark rangers would be more egregious offenders.
yeah, at this point, the only thing Elves and San'layn have in common are the pointy ears. but all the horde races except pandaren and Forsaken have pointy ears so that point is pretty moot. if the San'layn are Elves, then so are the Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, Tauren and Worgen (while in dog form).
Please no more elves. We've already have 4 kinds of elf, we don't need more. Not to mention, surely Blizzard should have higher priority things to do.
10/01/2018 10:07 AMPosted by
Rorrand
I want to be able to have epic magical duels with them.
To each their own, I suppose. I much prefer just going for the throat.
Okay, okay, I’ll admit it...I do that too.
10/01/2018 11:28 AMPosted by
Arothyn
Please no more elves. We've already have 4 kinds of elf, we don't need more. Not to mention, surely Blizzard should have higher priority things to do.
......
Posted by Arron
Finally, the proposed designs for San'layn outright downplay their elven nature. For all the talk of "elf fatigue" that this topic elicits, I personally feel dark rangers would be more egregious offenders. They're just blood elf models with red eyes and a skin texture nearly identical to what can be chosen for a blood elf death knight. Dark ranger should be a class, not a race itself. The San'layn blood prince model uses the male night elf skeleton but also has a completely unique texture. There's a much larger wellspring of what Blizzard can do to make the concept more unique and further differentiate it from typical elves if they work off the foundation of San'layn rather than Dark Rangers. Nobody's saying they have to be elf magi; I think the idea of a vampiric rogue is pretty lore-fitting.
It's honestly exhausting feeling like I type things up for nothing.
Fallynn, I swear, I honestly don't know how you keep your sanity with this thread.
10/01/2018 11:28 AMPosted by
Arothyn
Please no more elves. We've already have 4 kinds of elf, we don't need more. Not to mention, surely Blizzard should have higher priority things to do.
......
Posted by Arron
Finally, the proposed designs for San'layn outright downplay their elven nature. For all the talk of "elf fatigue" that this topic elicits, I personally feel dark rangers would be more egregious offenders. They're just blood elf models with red eyes and a skin texture nearly identical to what can be chosen for a blood elf death knight. Dark ranger should be a class, not a race itself. The San'layn blood prince model uses the male night elf skeleton but also has a completely unique texture. There's a much larger wellspring of what Blizzard can do to make the concept more unique and further differentiate it from typical elves if they work off the foundation of San'layn rather than Dark Rangers. Nobody's saying they have to be elf magi; I think the idea of a vampiric rogue is pretty lore-fitting.
It's honestly exhausting feeling like I type things up for nothing.
Fallynn, I swear, I honestly don't know how you keep your sanity with this thread.
Saying they aren't elves don't make them not elves. They are just literal blood elves.
10/01/2018 11:28 AMPosted by
Arothyn
Please no more elves. We've already have 4 kinds of elf, we don't need more. Not to mention, surely Blizzard should have higher priority things to do.
Nah, you can never have too many elves.
True that Arron. To be honest, I've gone inane already. I don't acknowledge the 'no elf' crowd much anymore though, they just repeat the same nonsense over and over again. I just keep ideas and conversation flowing at this point. But you do bring up many good points (well, continue to, considering you've said them so many times now, and yeah... I know how you feel entirely, hehehe.)
On another note, we as Allied Race communities now have a crossroads discord. Here it is: https://discord.gg/bSgETFY For those wanting to support San'layn and see the other communities too. We plan on growing quite a bit.
1 Like
10/01/2018 11:18 AMPosted by
Arron
There are many ideas in this thread regarding how the San'layn's use of blood magic could be baked into racial abilities.
I love this idea and I think it would help a ton towards every race's class flavor. Even if it was just visual. It would help Lightforged and Void Elves a ton, and Nightborne to a lesser extent
10/01/2018 11:18 AMPosted by
Arron
Void elves shouldn't be monks, but it's a concession that has to be made.
I'd rather Void Elves didn't exist at all, but yeah Void Elf monks make absolutely no sense.
10/01/2018 11:18 AMPosted by
Arron
Warlocks are just as much shadow users as they are fel users. Play an affliction lock and you'll hardly, if ever, actually tap into the fel. Priests are canon as we are increasingly being made aware that undead can, and will, utilize the force of the light. There is a death knight in canon that uses it, Alonsus Faol the undead is a priest, and then there's the recent development with Calia Menethil becoming a light-infused zombie. It hurts to use, but for undead that either don't care or masochistically enjoy the pain this isn't an issue. The shadow aspect of being a priest is self-explanatory and needs no further justification.
The only issue with a San'layn warlock would be that San'layn aren't warlocks - they're San'layn. Could they use fel? Almost assuredly. They already do use shadow magic, which warlocks use a
lot of as you pointed out. But warlocks and Darkfallen are their own things. I like chocolate and I like fried chicken. That doesn't mean chocolate-coated fried chicken would benefit both foods. Sort of the same issue with the Light but for slightly different reasons. What's a Darkfallen if they aren't shadowy and vampiric? Just another model to cover up with gear. A Light-using San'layn? It could be written in but at that point why even bother to be one? It isn't part of their history, identity, or fantasy. Using the Light doesn't make a Darkfallen feel
more like a Darkfallen.
10/01/2018 11:18 AMPosted by
Arron
Finally, the proposed designs for San'layn outright downplay their elven nature. For all the talk of "elf fatigue" that this topic elicits, I personally feel dark rangers would be more egregious offenders.
I only feel Dark Rangers would be the lesser evil because they don't fit the Highborne image as closely as San'layn do, nor do they use arcane. The San'layn are closer to magi than Dark Rangers, which are closer to rangers.
1 Like
10/01/2018 11:34 AMPosted by
Arothyn
Saying they aren't elves don't make them not elves. They are just literal blood elves.
And forsaken/worgen are literal humans.
The difference is they would bring a dramatically different
theme than blood elves do. Much like Forsaken/worgen bring different themes than normal humans.
1 Like
10/01/2018 11:34 AMPosted by
Arothyn
Saying they aren't elves don't make them not elves. They are just literal blood elves.
what elves? we only have Trolls, Evolved Trolls, Slightly Mutated Evolved Trolls, Heavily Mutated Evolved Trolls, and Corrupted Heavily Mutated Evolved Trolls.
why can't we get Undead Heavily Mutated Evolved Trolls?
Sanlayn npcs are different classes in ICC.
Why wouldnt they be able to be Warlocks, priests, warriors ect?
Who says they are restricted to blood magic. Void Elves and forsaken arent exempt from the light.
Who says they are restricted to blood magic. Void Elves and forsaken arent exempt from the light.
i know for Forsaken, the Light burns them and makes it so that they start to regain their senses (thus they feel, taste, and smell their decay, so no Forsaken Paladin) so in canon most undead priests are Shadow except for a very select few that could probably be counted with 1 hand. while i am not up to speed on Void Elf lore, i am almost certain that they only use Shadow in canon since they are infused with the Void and thus probably either have an incredibly hard time channeling the Light or straight up can't without some disaster happening (which is why no Void Elf Paladin). but since they can't just give these races access to only 1 spec of a class in game so they get all 3 of them.
but for a higher ranking undead who most likely got revived by the Lich King himself, such as San'layn and the Four Horsemen, using the Light is no problem for the most part (they still feel the pain, but the connection to LK dampens it or something i believe). i doubt we'd get San'layn paladins, but Priest would be a given since they would probably just be Shadow users in canon.
most likely set of classes for San'layn would be Warrior, Hunter, Rogue, Mage, Priest. with chances of Monk, Paladin, and Death Knights (DKs being only if the alliance mirrored AR also get them)
I think San'layn monks would be viable because there's forsaken monks myself
1 Like
10/02/2018 12:31 PMPosted by
Fallynn
I think San'layn monks would be viable because there's forsaken monks myself
There are forsaken monks because there were pandaren there to teach them. I doubt they'd have monk when first introduced if at all.
10/02/2018 12:31 PMPosted by
Fallynn
I think San'layn monks would be viable because there's forsaken monks myself
There are forsaken monks because there were pandaren there to teach them. I doubt they'd have monk when first introduced if at all.
But there are HM Tauren monks too, and they'd not been interacted with at all beforehand o.o the only ones not able to be a monk are LF Draeni.
If that's the case there shouldn't be KT or Zandalari monks either, and we know that isn't going to be the case.
Dark Rangers are just Undead Elf hunters.
Undead Elves are something that should be a race, but at the end of the day they are just pointy eared Forsaken.
And in the end a San'layn Hunter is even more like a Dark Ranger because Dark Rangers had a life steal ability.
So in the end San'layn have a lot more meat on their bones so to speak when it comes to being an Allied Race.