09/30/2018 08:56 PMPosted by
Reeven
P.S: I have yet to see an original argument against San'layn yet.
I can try.
The San'layn narrative was exclusive to the Alliance player, as evidenced by the Horde player never being aware of San'layn at any point in their own story. If not for being able to read about the other faction outside the game, the Horde player wouldn't even know these quests happen.
From this, you can parse that the intent of the writer was to preempt the Horde player caring about San'layn. That story was for Alliance eyes only. What was the story about? It was about the Alliance player's victory in denying an ally to the Horde.
Therefore, revealing a San'layn allied race would :
a) come out of nowhere from the Horde player viewpoint,
b) undermine and and make null the Alliance player narrative which was precisely about denying the Horde that ally.
The second point being the most important, because good storytelling style guides tell you to avoid that: stealing the player's cake. I like this thread because it's cool, and I was really excited too back in beta when Dreven got datamined. But now that we can examine the actual narrative structure, these Alliance quests absolutely don't mean the Horde is getting San'layn. If anything, they mean the opposite.
Now, for a little bit of Occam's Razor, ask yourselves what is more likely. Blizzard writers laying the grounds for a future allied race in the opposite faction's quest lines? Or Blizzard writers wasting a great opportunity without even realizing?
See now this is the type of post I like to see. You were not rude, immature and you did not call us names, you presented a constructive and logical argument against San'layn. I actually agree that giving us San'layn right now would feel like taking the wind of the Alliance's sale and your argument about the lack of San'layn Horde side. Thank you for opening my eyes to another perspective. Thank you so much for the constructive and civil argument.
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10/01/2018 07:04 AMPosted by
Phlynch
09/30/2018 09:00 PMPosted by
Drede
Remember.
All you need is one Vampire to make more Vampires.
As long as there is one left there can be hope.
(And an undocumented amount of undead elves.)
Actually we have no idea how Vampirismin works in Azeroth.
Blood Thane Lucard seemed to be able to spread it, but his minions also didn't seem to have their own volition. It may take more than just biting someone to make them a true vampire here.
it's been a while since i did that quest line, but to me the vampirates seemed more like mindless minions whereas San'layn each have a mind of their own, kinda like the Vampirates were thralls instead of actual vampires. like how in in some vampire mythology it's the intent on biting on whether or not the person gets turned, and then if that person gets turned whether they turn into a mindless thrall or a full blown vampire.
I might be wrong, but I just don't see Horde getting a SECOND Night Elf race, even if they are undead.
i doubt we'd get a full blown night elven race as well, which is why i think we'll most likely get a base elven form and can change our skin color, and depending on the skin color we choose our ears will go from being the BE or NE variant (in terms of how the droop and where they point and all that)
09/30/2018 08:56 PMPosted by
Reeven
b) undermine and and make null the Alliance player narrative which was precisely about denying the Horde that ally.
unfortunately for the Alliance, you only managed to kill one Blood Prince (who was relatively new, not one of the 2 that survived WotLK) and even so the Blood Princes have a knack for being revived.
it's been a while since i did that quest line, but to me the vampirates seemed more like mindless minions whereas San'layn each have a mind of their own, kinda like the Vampirates were thralls instead of actual vampires. like how in in some vampire mythology it's the intent on biting on whether or not the person gets turned, and then if that person gets turned whether they turn into a mindless thrall or a full blown vampire.
And it's possible that WoW Vampirism works like that. It may also be like the scourge where the raiser has to maintain control and if they just loosen their grip their thralls get their volition back.
Not before the Alliance gets High Elves like we've been asking since Vanilla.
Supported, but only as a neutral allied race.
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I would just like to see more about them before actual consideration. I dont want this to be another "Void elves are here lol" like for the Blood Prince Dreven to show up randomly for no reason then say "Sylvanas cut a deal with them"
WHERE WERE THEY?
HOW HAS THEIR SOCIETY LASTED?
WHO LEADS THEM?
These are important questions that need to be addressed. And I think killing Dreven was the wrong thing to do is San'layn were expected to be an allied race...or desired to be one.
Supported, but only as a neutral allied race.
No, the last neutral race sucks and I am posting from one. If you want even worse direction for a race, be neutral.
Supported, but only as a neutral allied race.
after pandaria they said they won't make any neutral race anymore
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I think San'layn would work better if the Horde splits into two factions. With the San'layn joining, what I call the Forsaken Horde.
I would just like to see more about them before actual consideration. I dont want this to be another "Void elves are here lol" like for the Blood Prince Dreven to show up randomly for no reason then say "Sylvanas cut a deal with them"
WHERE WERE THEY?
HOW HAS THEIR SOCIETY LASTED?
WHO LEADS THEM?
These are important questions that need to be addressed. And I think killing Dreven was the wrong thing to do is San'layn were expected to be an allied race...or desired to be one.
Supported, but only as a neutral allied race.
No, the last neutral race sucks and I am posting from one. If you want even worse direction for a race, be neutral.
Okay, then I don't support them. I am tired of the Alliance being saddled with garbage retread races. The last thing I want to do is roll a Darkfallen just to hang out in a mudpit like Orgrimmar. Under those circumstances, I never want to see them in WoW.
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10/01/2018 09:16 AMPosted by
Galahir
Not before the Alliance gets High Elves like we've been asking since Vanilla.
This is not a high elf thread, this is a San'layn thread. High elf talk will be kept out of this thread, as it causes too many issues and arguments. If you don't like it, go support the High Elf community. The two communities are not one and the same.
I would just like to see more about them before actual consideration. I dont want this to be another "Void elves are here lol" like for the Blood Prince Dreven to show up randomly for no reason then say "Sylvanas cut a deal with them"
That is perfectly understandable. I actually made a speculation video on my thoughts as to where they are currently, and Dreven's fate. It's here: https://youtu.be/GMCu26DGRdI though not extremely high quality due to my camera not being the best, but it gives a good idea on what we think. I have a document that highlights our speculation too. Here it is if you want to give the video a skip and are curious: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C9H4AZ98gnYvUSMl9ChqUUG1jY7NctJsOG9Vu5VMKEo/edit?usp=sharing
And if you don't want to go digging through that stuff, I also understand. When it comes down to it, I personally don't expect to see them anytime soon, and not without proper build-up. Would I like to see them as soon as possible? Of course! But that's my own personal opinion, and I understand that it simply would not, in many people's eyes, be fair. I imagine other allied races will be looked into and made available first, as people have made it clear that they want more variety.
******
As for neutrality, flat out no from me. They've said no for more neutral races, as mentioned, and it's clear that the San'layn would join the Horde based on what's seen in the Alliance war campaign. It is not mentioned on horde side, but the San'layn neophytes are friendly to the horde player character if you do some digging. Plus... the Alliance hate the undead.
Also, you don't have to support them. That's perfectly fine, I'm not asking for the support of everyone that comes across this thread. I
am asking for reasonable arguments, like some of which have been given lately, and neutrality simply makes no sense.
I agree that Neutrality makes no sense. I also agree that under no circumstances should they be Alliance.
But I don't think the Horde, as it stands now, is a good fit either.
If however, the Horde splits into two factions. The faction under Sylvanas would be perfect. Particularly if that faction relocated to Northrend.
It would require serious development work, but I think it would be best.
10/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by
Halthir
I agree that Neutrality makes no sense. I also agree that under no circumstances should they be Alliance.
But I don't think the Horde, as it stands now, is a good fit either.
If however, the Horde splits into two factions. The faction under Sylvanas would be perfect. Particularly if that faction relocated to Northrend.
It would require serious development work, but I think it would be best.
I honestly think that would be a really cool end result, the issue is however that the development work would indeed be a bit much. I personally think that by the end of this, Sylvanas will step down, and we'll learn whatever 'greater purpose' she's meant to serve soon enough. They did say this would not be a repeat of MoP, which I hope is the case, so her ending up not dead-dead and still on Horde would be ideal.
A third faction or Horde split would be a lot of fun, though. I just don't think that the devs would want to do such a thing because it would significantly change the game's dynamic.
10/01/2018 09:40 AMPosted by
Fallynn
10/01/2018 09:38 AMPosted by
Halthir
I agree that Neutrality makes no sense. I also agree that under no circumstances should they be Alliance.
But I don't think the Horde, as it stands now, is a good fit either.
If however, the Horde splits into two factions. The faction under Sylvanas would be perfect. Particularly if that faction relocated to Northrend.
It would require serious development work, but I think it would be best.
I honestly think that would be a really cool end result, the issue is however that the development work would indeed be a bit much. I personally think that by the end of this, Sylvanas will step down, and we'll learn whatever 'greater purpose' she's meant to serve soon enough. They did say this would not be a repeat of MoP, which I hope is the case, so her ending up not dead-dead and still on Horde would be ideal.
A third faction or Horde split would be a lot of fun, though. I just don't think that the devs would want to do such a thing because it would significantly change the game's dynamic.
Yes, the development work is daunting and likely beyond anything that the current dev team would consider.
But after 14 years and the mixed reception to BfA, it may be time to shake up the status quo.
Sorry, I have no doubt outed myself as former DAOC player.
I want to be able to have epic magical duels with them.
I want to be able to have epic magical duels with them.
To each their own, I suppose. I much prefer just going for the throat.
While Sylvanas is Warchief we need to take this opportunity to recruit as much undead as we possibly can.
Why not undead elves as playable race with exclusive san'layn and dark ranger classes
Why not undead elves as playable race with exclusive san'layn and dark ranger classes
That's two new classes you're asking to be developed from scratch, and they'd have to come up with some convoluted reason to also give it to an Alliance race since we haven't had faction-exclusive classes since vanilla. Personally, I think Blizz is starting to feel the fatigue with attempting to balance the 12 we already have.
What flavor would they bring that Blood Elves and Nightborne don't already? Blood Elves are ruthless and pragmatic. Nightborne are haughty and brooding. What classes would fit them? Dk, rogue, warrior? Their racial class (sanguimancy) isn't even available to us.
I'm generally not a fan of Blizzard pulling legitimacy out of thin air when it comes to allied races (looking at Void Elves) and the San'layn have always been pretty clear that they hated everyone. I can't imagine why they'd decide to join a faction now.
If we got another elf race I'd prefer it to be something more versatile and founded in lore, like Dark Rangers or High Elves (which again, unfortunately, Void Elves water down both.) Would I be upset about playable San'layn? No. Would I rather see other races brought to the Horde? Yes.
Personally I just don't think they'd add enough to the current roster, and if they were they wouldn't be able to deliver on the Darkfallen aesthetic anyway.
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10/01/2018 10:38 AMPosted by
Aurael
What flavor would they bring that Blood Elves and Nightborne don't already? What classes would fit them? Void elves have theme issues as is. I'm generally not a fan of Blizzard pulling legitimacy out of thin air when it comes to allied races and the San'layn historically hated everyone. I can't imagine why they'd decide to join a faction now.
If we got another elf race I'd prefer it to be something more versatile and founded in lore, like Dark Rangers or High Elves. Granted we don't have many elves left since we already have so many, but. Would I be upset about playable San'layn? No. Would I rather see another race added first? Yes.
Dark Rangers are more founded in lore than the San'layn?
Strongly disagree.
If anything, the class restrictions you are concerned about would be exacerbated by playable dark rangers. By definition, these are undead that have only ever been hunters. A playable San'layn race would be able to roll a rogue, mage, or warlock while still remaining true to their devious nature. A San'layn hunter would also effectively be a dark ranger and could be widely treated as such. Warriors and monks would be granted to give them two options for tanking and priest would probably be thrown in as the second healing class.
They also aren't any more evil than yours truly, so they seem to make perfect sense.