San’layn/vampyr Elf ALLIED RACE Coagulated Megathread of Ideas{Re-VAMPed} (Part 1)

I’m also hoping for no night elf (ONLY night elf, a combo of both options would be fine) model for San’layn, unless it’s a REALLY souped up version of the Blood Prince model that is explicitly stated to still be Thalassian. This model here hypnos did for male San’layn would be sick.

https://i.redd.it/4mlug8q6n1y01.jpg

As has been brought up.

You guys think that with the new Bloodlines game coming out, the hype for vampires could be growing a bit? I hope so. I see it talked about in passing, but I also run a community of like-minded people that enjoy the vampire mythos, so that could be some bias glasses.

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Been looking for that picture.

Speaking of which I notice there seems to be a mentality that every new Elf added has to be paired with another Elf.

So far the only time that’s happened is with Void Elves/Nightborne so I don’t think it’s a set pattern. They could be stand alone or paired with something else.

Does everyone agree/disagree with the idea that it needs to be Elf/Elf?

I strongly disagree that elf/elf needs to be a thing. In fact, there’s an odd idea I have for a San’layn pairing that could be pretty neat. Now, hear me out. Sethrak. Why? Well…
San’layn cover the snowy terrain of Northrend and give Horde an advantage there, along with giving them yet another upper hand against the void (if the rumors are true that undead can resist that more.)

Meanwhile, the Sethrak would give the Alliance an advantage in desert terrain, underground areas in particular.

Both races have this very regal tone to them, and both have fangs (snake and vampire). And of course, both start with ‘S’. :stuck_out_tongue: But really.

Sethrak could use the worgen models and be their ‘counterpart’, and San’layn would be the forsaken ‘counterpart’. Much like Mechagnomes x Vulpera.

I don’t think elf x elf is therefore necessary, I dislike being tied down by it being a thought of ‘requirement’ myself.

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I also don’t think elf/elf is likely a thing(though I’d be fine with it), mainly because I see the San’layn being the Undead’s AR instead of a 2nd BE AR. And expect to get a Gnome or Worgen AR at the same time.


Anyway, I haven’t popped into this thread since the war campaign ended. I gotta say, having Sylvanas peace out at the end doesn’t fill me with a lot of confidence.

Mainly because the ties the Horde was making with the San’layn at the start of the expansion were mainly because of Sylvanas, and now she’s leaving, before that alliance was finalized, and is seemingly taking all her other undead elves with her.

It does, unfortunately, make it seem less likely that they’ll become an AR instead of boss fodder for Sylvanas’ future raid instance…

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The one case where Elf/Elf would be a 100% requirement would be in either a patch related to both groups so you can share lore/story/characters. Or they make a new model for both San’layn and High Elves.

Keep in mind Kul Tiran made them question a fully unique model because it took so long and held back Zandalari. The only way I see either group getting brand new models is if they share the same one.

About Sethrak, I don’t see them as viable ATM but that could change in a patch or two. They are lacking ‘meat’ when it comes to a fully flushed out option. One main on is not player ready models.

Arakkoa are also are more unique race I would love to see but aren’t there yet.

Ogres can use the Kul Tiran skeleton as we see Rexxar using it perfectly. But they are a Horde option.

Broken now use the Draenei model since Argus so they have a chance if they add a female model.

They could be weird and add Wildhammer Dwarves with San’layn. It’s not like they have to be related in story at all.

Vulpra are almost guaranteed to be paired with Mechagnomes.

Forest Trolls have potential but again, a Horde thing.

Alliance is pretty low on potential race options come to think of it.

That is the way I see it too.

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I agree, I’d like to see more diverse options. Sethrak would certainly make the Alliance appear more interesting.

I do like the idea of San’layn. If there is going to be another elf option in the near future it should be this. Vampires are popular across fiction and we don’t have a similar player option. With hype around Bloodlines, I think they’d be a great addition.

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Hoolie doolie, what the hell are those racials? He’s got a literal tailoring racial on one side and wall-to-wall gamebreaking racials on the other.

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I think we come across a common issue with the current, and it has to deal with presumed patterns of how the Allied Races function:

  1. "The Allied Races are Subraces of Core Races"

If this is the case in how Blizzard does future ARs (not counting Vulpera), it would be well assumed that the Forsaken would receive the San’layn and fill in the core remnants of the undead trope through Sylvanas loyalists/needed allies.

The only issue here is Worgen modeled races for an Alliance AR is…limited:

a) Sethrak still have no where near the connections that they have with the Alliance that would be shown off to justify them as an ally. They have shown more as regional allies of the Horde during the scenes of Talanji’s crowning. However, to break said ties would require some storyline to justify it like we have seen sometimes before or just shoehorn it.

The other issue with Sethrak is their models and customization. The models arent the best to work with player armor and arent in tandem with the UPM; as well as lacking key customization that would help define the race.

Its not impossible, but its not in the cards (much like Ankoan)

b) Night elf worgen (Druids of the Pack) would only be the other option without making something out of a hat. With how it seems that Tyrande has gone off a deep end in terms of vengeance and reclamation of her lands, it could be somewhat possible to call upon the Scythe of Elune as a way of vengeance.

HOWEVER, Ralaar is dead, the worgen curse that spread in Val’sharah from the Scythe during Legion was reverted by the druid player, and there is no actual difference in worgen form than those that are playable.

So this may be a large dead end if Blizzard doesnt put forth to make them different or playable.

  1. "The Vulpera Will Signify that the Allied Races Are More Diverse"

The vulpera not being a true subrace of goblins (but model users) do have some people thinking that the next allied races will be a diverse group not following a formula.

If this is the case and San’layn are announced; it does give Alliance more leeway to get a good allied race. It would allow possible fan favorites in the form of the high elves to show up…yet, I do not believe the first choice for Blizzard would be them.

It would be lightforged undead. Sorry Fallyn.

In this case, Blizzard can freely push the narrative they have hinted at in the end of 8.2.5 with the meeting in Stormsong Valley. Calia has arrived and presented a question for us: “Can the undead citizens of Lordaeron be redeemed to the Alliance?”

We have already seen how Calia is acting as a mentor role for Derek Proudmoore who seems to be taking a secondary, but important role in the scheme of things. Derek serves as a vital position (along so with Calia) as a bridge between those who could be Calia’s followers to Anduin through Jaina’s allowance.

Not only that, it would add a lot more ideas into the Forsaken with a now clear schism without having Calia take the reigns of Lordaeron and the Horde race. You can have those willing to follow the rightful heir of Calia who shares their fate and can lead them down a path of redemption…and those who are willing to stand by their long time allies of the Horde (and those who serve the Dark Lady) while finally allowing the San’layn to come in.

The San’layn could also be in the case of downtrodden who need the Horde, but can offer something in return: a way to find and fight Sylvanas. It would not only develop the Forsaken but also give the Blood elves a unique way to interact (since the void elves dont exactly do that).

You don’t really believe this do you?

Even after the Forsaken literally lost both of their important leaders through what could only be described as a Calia-shaped hole?

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Yeah that was a major concern in this thread at the ending of the war campaign. I think it’s why some of us peaced out, and why I almost did as well. I’m waiting until the con now, because it could bring surprises. Never know! Things do look pretty bleak, I will admit. Ah well.

Yeah that’s true. It seems like all of the potential Alliance races don’t have a story to back them up, or don’t have models to back them up. Aside from mechagnomes. Come to think of it, San’layn have that issue though. Story ended on a note that could have been expanded before, but now seems very shifty unless some strings are pulled due to Sylv rushing off like she did.

And then there’s models. Which San’layn have none of, and weren’t updated for war campaign either. Something that also makes me think that they were just fodder. But who knows, there’s still hope as many keep bringing up with their ideas.

I’m glad I’m not the only one that noticed this! It’s obvious that the communities I run or am in are big fans of vampires, so I wasn’t sure if the hype was just among them or if it was being given a nod to by more than just really excited vampire fans.

Yeah I didn’t pay attention to the racials at all, just the model itself. To be honest I’d just want a racial turning into a cloud of bats (super sick) or blood-draining, which would be fine as just flavor. A leech % would also make sense, probably. But I’m not a big racials person, I like things relating more to special effects :stuck_out_tongue:

To be fair if we get San’layn along with LFU… I wouldn’t really care. I’d just shrug and feel a bit bad for the Alliance (most of who I talk to really hate the idea) but hey, I’d get what I’ve been wanting and putting work into for planning for a while. Sounds kinda selfish, but I wouldn’t be all that angry :stuck_out_tongue: Just… sympathetic.

This is primarily why I hate the idea of LFU. That you have to be redeemed to have value, and that somehow this ritual makes you better. All in all, in my eyes, it’s just a Mary-sue idea that unless there’s some nuance to it, seems very meh in my opinion.

This would be our key, yes. I can definitely see this. San’layn are intelligent undead and no doubt would be miffed that the scourge used them, much like how DK are. (Well, that’s what I like to think, if we’re talking a reasonable manner in which they’d be considered an Allied Race). They also need a home, as said in 8.0, and Sylv didn’t give them their chance. She threw them away like garbage, so it seems, on that ship. Especially if they were meant to be just a distraction so that the Horde could nab the corpse.

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Not just that, I really hate the idea that the Alliance has some kind of monopoly on righteousness. Why does falling in with the Alliance somehow equal redemption and why should the Forsaken care at all what the Alliance think?

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I think the Redeemed undead would be rather snazzy if done tastefully.

Really I’d just rather anything than more elves.

Personally I think vampire elves are way more interesting than glowing mary-sue humans (in which we have wolf humans, dead humans, sailor humans, and regular humans already so same amount as elves) but that’s just me. If the community thinks that “redeemed” are a better fit for the game due to them not being elves, I guess there is no way to win here.

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Ok, so this is a good example of why I take issue with conditional support of San’layn, (e.g. people who say things such as “I support the addition of San’layn for Horde if Alliance gets high elves,”) as well as people who theorize what their counterpart on the other faction might be. You spent a good chunk of your post examining the arguments behind what might be the equivalent for the Alliance, presuming it would take the form of a worgen allied race. However, because you could not find a suitable argument for a decent worgen allied race, you instead shifted the possibility towards both factions getting one that is based on the undead, with Lightforged Undead and San’layn being the diametrically opposed components here.

This, I feel, is a wildly unproductive line of thinking. Support for San’layn should not be dependent on “well if Horde gets X, then this means Alliance gets Y,” or “because Horde already has Y, this means it’s impossible for them to have Z.”

For instance, you talk about how there is no physiological distinction between night elf worgen and gilnean worgen. But before BFA there was no distinction between the appearance of Kul Tirans and those of Stormwind. Before BFA Void Elves didn’t exist, and we had no indication that they would ever make their entrance into the lore.

But the lore evolves in wild and unpredictable ways. I don’t feel it’s necessarily helpful to characterize the possibility of San’layn inclusion based on what seems to currently be on the table for the other faction. If patch 8.3 added a bunch of night elf worgen with purple fur, and retconned the appearance of those in Val’sharah, would that suddenly make San’layn a more likely candidate for inclusion? It might make for some healthy speculation on a future worgen allied race, but I don’t really see how this affects discussion on a totally separate concept altogether.

That being said, and while speculation is fine, I feel like you’re grasping a bit at straws here;

First off, the idea of “Lightforged Forsaken” doesn’t have any basis in lore. What happens to a single individual does not necessarily mean a replication across an entire population of people. We don’t have any indication that it’s even possible to replicate the process; Derek Proudmoore has had “discussions” with Calia since Jaina sent him to meet her, but he doesn’t seem to be “Lightforged” because of it.

Secondly, what do you mean by it gives the Alliance leeway to get a “good” Allied race? Define good? There are four Horde races that are historically more innocent than any of the others; Jungle Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves, and Pandaren. And of those four only one of them have made the light a cultural staple, with a second only casually maintaining a paladin order. I don’t think the Alliance would snub their noses at the tauren, for instance, if they made the request to join the Alliance. The reason they stay in the Horde is not because they’re “evil,” it’s because they value the blood oaths they have sworn with the other races, such as the orcs. Cultural differences, more than anything else, are what defines the factions. Lightforging the forsaken isn’t going to magically fix the resentment they feel for their abandonment by the Alliance. Calia might serve as a mediator to help heal those divisions, but right now she’s not looking to be the replacement for Sylvanas; she’s looking to be an analogue of Malfurion’s role in the Cenarion Circle.

Which brings us to the final problem; why would the Alliance only be amenable to the forsaken if they lightforged themselves? This has never been a standard for any other culture. Void Elves actively threatened one of the holiest sources of magic in the Eastern Kingdoms, blessed by both the Blood Knights and Prophet Velen himself, and yet they’re allowed in the Alliance so long as they can control their urges. Worgen are deformed beat creatures that are naturally inclined to murderous intentions, and have caused great trouble in Darkshire and Gilneas, and yet there was never any push to “lightforge” them. The Dark Iron Dwarves waged war against their dwarven brethren and unleashed terrible horrors into the world whilst doing so, and yet they were allowed to join without the reconditioning offered by the light. Not even humans are required to be servants of the church of the Holy Light, as seen by the prevalence of Si:7 (their leader, Matthias Shaw, is faithless, as seen from his conversations with Halford Wyrmbane), the existence of the death knights, and the allowance of Stormwind humans to practice warlock arts.

As much as the culture of Stormwind worships the holy light I do not believe them to consider it the great be-all and end-all of what defines “goodness,” and they certainly don’t maintain it to be a mandatory part of every citizen’s life.

I really don’t think they do. Some might support it out of spite, some might genuinely want this but their numbers are small, but I really don’t think there’s much of an argument to be made here. High elf supporters at least point to WC2 and WC3 as precedent for High Elf presence in the Alliance, but there’s absolutely no precedent for undead being in the Alliance at all.

I suppose you could say that, as the former people of Lordaeron, every member of the forsaken was once a member of the Alliance, and therefore lightforged forsaken would just be giving the Alliance back the kingdom of Lordaeron just as Kul Tiras was returned. But, if that were the case, I would want the “lightforged forsaken” to, first, not be called lightforged forsaken because that’s a stupid name, and second to be more of a variation on the human model than a variation on the undead model. I suppose it’s “fortunate,” if you can even use that word, that Calia leans more human than undead from a visual standpoint.

I’d still probably hate it, but at the very least it isn’t stealing a race from the Horde.

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Nope not at all.

Still nope lol.

Which isnt me, so calm down Fido.

Because they have to give out two ARs at the same time: one for Alliance, one for Horde. Its the idea that how Sanlayn can be done if we look at the two trends that we notice which is “ARs are just subraces” or “Vulpera are gonna break the cycle.”

Because:

Mechagnome = gnome and vulpera = goblin (kinda), leaving only undead and worgen as the last two core races that dont have an allied race.

Its simple process of elimination. (AND NO, PANDAREN PROBABLY WONT BE GETTING ONE.)

Because there isnt one for Alliance that fits the idea of a worgen AR in current existence.

The shift to LFU is part of my second logic. Its not something I support, but its something I could see happening since Blizzard doesnt introduce something like that without having plans to push it further.

How to misread posts 101.

Which is when I said.

Which is me saying “Blizzard could make them different if they WANTED TO and make them playable.”. So either you didnt read or are just rageposting.

It does. The problem is night elf worgen need actually something major to happen since…none actually exist right now in WoW.

It does, because of how the allied race system seems to be progressing with one for each core race. Sanlayn have a big probability to be the Forsaken AR, yet we need to think of somehow a worgen AR can come into existence for Alliance.

Refer back to when I said “If Blizzard wanted to…”

Neither did void elves.

Void elves.

Void elves.

That doesnt matter. It means he has a role. Turalyon isnt a lightforged draenai and he is considered one of their racial leaders. This stuff doesnt matter and can be resolved easily.

Something different. Anything that sees more play than Kultiran Humans.

And the wind blows again with the words “void elves”.

Because it makes them different from the core race of Forsaken. Like how VOID ELVES sudden are allowed in the Alliance with their High King and a few of their leaders are priests of some kind. An Alliance which is heavily paladin heavy.

You must understand, if Blizz wants X to happen…they will write ways for X to happen.

Not since Cataclysm. They havent been an issue since the Scythe was recovered.

Because they were forced into the Alliance during Cataclysm. They were literally bound to becoming part of the Council of Three Hammers or else Moira would have been executed by Varian.

You dont know your own lore, do you?

This is just conjecture.

That was long, but good idea.

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Agree. That Thalassian Model for the San’layn suits them better than Undead Night Elves. Save the Night Elf Model for High Elves.

Gill-goblins are also in the pool.

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They are but they need a lot of love given to them. Even with the update to their model, they are still looking rather rough and unclean while also lacking necessary customization. If they ever get that, Ill say yes…but as for the moment…