480-486 is enough to do at least +8’s.
470 is plenty.
Possibly.
I think a big issue is the fact that people who were doing low keys last season are going to see a gigantic step up in difficulty. Since the lockout precludes practice in these dungeons, they’re not going to be learning the mechanics that people who wanted to stick it to those noobs think they will.
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It doesn’t foster play if your head is being bashed in at M0. Better scheme is to go back to Season 3 and let people play at levels they want. The advanced players can always rocket up to M20+ at their own pace, and what people do at the low-keys shouldn’t be any of their concens.
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How do you mean exactly? The difficulty doesn’t need to go up but gear rewards do, or the opposite?
I don’t think the gear rewarded needs to be better, I think heroics need to actually be a learning experience. We don’t need one shot mechanics in them but it would be nice if bosses could actually show all of their mechanics before dying for example.
i do think that heroics to m0 to m2 need a smoother grading.
if heroics drop 476 and m2 are dropping 496 and are appropriately tuned, then m0 should be dropping and tuned for people in the ~486 range.
it would at least feel less of a leap for some people.
however, as I said above, s4 m0 isn’t hitting that hard. people are just thinking they can pew pew their way through and it won’t work.
In m0, i see a ton of butt pulls, melee just standing in the whirlwind, players with zero interrupts in an entire run, etc.
s4 dungeons are not s3 heroics even though it is the same dungeon pool. I think too many people expect that.
Then they don’t belong there at the ilvl they’re trying, simple as that. It’s supposed to be their endgame and they’re trying to finish it week 2.
It’s only bashed in if you don’t LEARN. That’s the point of anything difficult, to learn and be challenged. It’s not hard at all, something I’ve tried to refrain from bringing up, but: It. Is. Easy.
If you can’t do it, you need to learn why you’re failing and actually make corrections. Period.
I suspect that’s how Blizzard Dev Team feels too, and if so then their mission to get more causal players into Mythics would likely fail.
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No it won’t because there’s no stakes. They took it all away. Now you learn at your pace! Not the M+ timers.
How about we put this simplistically? Regardless if you are a casual or hardcore, regardless if you got a notification in-game on the changes to the dungeons and difficulty scaling or not; you go in and try to push content. If you get punched in the face you take a step back and do content at a lower difficulty until you’re comfortable with that and then proceed to progress in difficulty. Why is this an issue?
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These two sentences seem to contradict each other.
“The point of anything difficult is to learn. But also, this is not difficult.”
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Their goal was to remove timers and remove some rungs in the dungeon ladder. That’s what they have done. If a rung is not achievable for a player, they can stay on a lower rung. Just like they aren’t doing mythic raids.
They also specifially made m0 at m10 equivalent without timers to give a timerless endgame challenge to players that hate timers for some reason.
And surprise o the century, people complain it’s too hard.
It is meant to be hard bucko.
In order to learn mythic mechanics, you get one shot per week unless you’re comfortable not getting rewards for being there.
Plus, some players have a reason for not being able to make performance checks, including physical limitations. Every dungeon this season has at least one boss that has a mandatory damage check that likely will wipe a group that doesn’t overgear it if missed.
The problem is two fold:
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A lot of players needing to gear up to bridge the gap from heroic to M0 will likely reach the point that the content they are using to gear becomes trivial before they’ve acquired the gear necessary to be successful in M0.
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The ability to play the M+ game mode at any difficulty has been removed for anyone who is below what used to be a +12.
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Because the lower difficulty is currently so easy that it doesn’t serve as a teaching tool for the content people are getting wrecked in. If people didn’t feel blindsided by how much mechanics suddenly mattered in M0 when they could ignore them from level 1 up through heroics then we wouldn’t have an issue.
In a perfect world heroics would be harder and a gradual curve took people from normal => M+. Right now it doesn’t, it just slaps you in the back of the head at M0 and tells you to get good.
And if they make Heroic dungeons harder only so players can learn how to do M0, then M0 should be added to the LFD tool, right? Others have said,and to me it makes sense, it seems like it would be better to tweak M0 and to also then use M1+ where M0 would be the place to learn and would also be the new cut-off point when using the LFD tool.
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You run heroics until you get up to 475ish? At this point you should already be familiar with the dungeon routes, trash, and certain basic mechanics. You now should be able to run a M0 world tour for a week or two (or however long you need) to get gear and/or familiarity of the critical mechanics in said dungeon. You now move forward to +2.
That difficulty now rests somewhere between M0 and M+2. The difficulty has not been removed, it’s just called something different. People should do the content they’re comfortable doing - pay no mind to whatever it is classified as in-game.
I think this would be more true if these were brand new dungeons and not DF dungeons most are already quite familiar with in the M+ scene. Even by chance someone doesn’t fully understand by m0 what bosses do, it’s not like they are unable to try again and perform better. The difficulty scaling increases, if it kills someone at m0 I am sure they will quickly realize (or should) what they need to do to overcome those obstacles with their group.
Then people need to stop stepping into Heroics over geared.
Go into Heroics at 450 and 460
If you’re going into Heroics at 470, you’re already over gearing them.
Thats the entire issue. M0 isn’t too hard because of mechanics. It’s hard because people are attempting then under the recommended ilvl. Just like Heroics aren’t “too easy”, people are just going into them over the recommended ilvl.
Gear is the issue. People are dying in m0 not because of 1 shots, but because of low ilvl. And for eating a mechanic because they’re used to just ignoring everything.
Which once you get to about 480, you can start ignoring mechanics in m0 too
One would think. But I’ve gone rounds with Dwel on the subject and he thinks people are incapable of learning 1 new mechanic per boss.
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This doesn’t address the point at all. Needing to bridge a gap of what was 10 M+ levels is going to take upgrading basically every slot with both a drop, and some item level upgrades from flightstones/crests. How long is it going to take for the difficulty of the content you’re doing to get stale because it’s no longer a challenge? Yet the next level up is still too hard until you get more gear?
No, it is actually gone. It’s impossible for 11 difficulty levels to compress into 2 without losing some granularity. Now I will agree that we didn’t need 11 levels of granularity to go from 0 to 11, but having just those endpoint levels is a huge gap to have to traverse. There are players for which M0 was absolutely faceroll trivial who found M+10 difficult even when fully geared for the season.
That is just not what I’ve said at all, but you insist on reducing my argument to one mechanic being insurmountable rather than addressing what I’ve actually said on the subject. New mechanic + overlaps created by that new mechanic + 85% higher scaling on damage and boss at the same time is not the same as simply one new mechanic per boss in a vacuum.
My solution which is evolving but I’ve proposed in a few threads is a little different. The voices are loud and clear and the answer isn’t to just ramp difficulty up the ramp needs to be extended and smoother. We also have a weird issue with these changes as it relates to drake crests. Its a bottleneck right now that doesn’t exist once you can run and have gear all on the wyrm crest upgrade track.
- Leave Normal and Heroic alone.
- Retune 0 to S3’s +4 and continue to drop drake crests. Adjust the rewards that drop in the 0 to be 480 Adventure gear the same as LFR.
- Add a +1 key and slap it in the exact same spot that 0 are currently. When you get your very first key you get a +1 instead of a +2. If you break a +2 you move down to a +1.
- 0 would have no affixes, no timers, and no kill count.
- +1 would have no affixes but has the traditional M+ timers and count.
This has several beneficial effects based on all the feedback happening right now:
- 0s are easier. The low ceiling players and new players have an easier to reach run on the ladder. Nothing is being taken away from the top end challenge it just smooths out the baseline ramp of difficulty. Players get their no timer no kill count pressure. It’s truer to M+ than before but not as much of a punch in the face as it is now (for those players).
- Drake crests which is everyone’s bottle neck right now who is midcore is resolved. Instead of being limited to doing various zeros you can still spam keys in +1 to earn drakes which you still need to improve the 1-4 champion gear tiers before you can use wyrm. You can do this now without needing to downgrade crests or cap wyrm and overflow into drake.
- Players who learn through doing can spam +1 keys - as hard as the old 0s and target the same dungeons to master mechanics. Something they can’t do in zeros.
There’s no downside from the current system to do this and you still cut out 8 levels of difficulty that people called dead.
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