Whelp, you are out of luck buster. Games make changes all the time, and there are winners and losers. Now please just stop, it is becoming embarrassing how much you are crying over a dang video game. There are bigger things to worry about in life.
You’re right, there are. But regardless how much you insist nobody at Blizzard will read feedback on the forums, I’m going to provide it so perhaps we can get to a system where more people will be happy.
You really should stop trying to tell me what to do. If you don’t want to see what I’m posting, you have the ability to do so whether I stop or not. But rest assured if I do, it will not have anything to do with you telling me to stop.
I ignored you a long time ago, I just felt it necessary to push back on these walls of word salad you keep spewing.
You got a serious ego problem.
I’ve been playing this game for 20 years, and I have never seen a player whine as much as you.
The irony…
You’re saying your group underperforms in raid and nobody cares, you say you run a healer so you don’t eclipse them in m+, you’ve also said the group is entirely facilitated by you so that they can experience keys.
It sounds like this group was comfortable in +6s last season because you could heal their mistakes, which is entirely a form of carrying them. If the problem is dps checks now then just carry them through those too. They suddenly care about not being carried in m+?
I have no idea how you reached this number? There’s what, totems on Wratheye, totem on Bromach, and the crystals on Umbrelskul - literally all of these are liveable on m0 if they survive too long and no other real/pure damage checks come to mind.
I’m sure no reasonable person would mind if you just killed the totems in Brackenhide to cover for your wife’s disability. If your group really would feel bad about that they’ve probably got bigger issues than their dps but you could always just throw a bite where it’s needed and let them keep believing they’re good enough to do the content you’ve been carrying them through forever.
You already said this season your wife isn’t even playing, not even attempting an m0, how do you even know she can’t meet the damage checks? All she’d have to do is save resources and fire one or two big abilities at it and it’d be done.
I genuinely think that with some coaching, anyone capable of pressing a glacial spike can meet the damage checks in m0s, there are no reactions required, they come on timers with huge warning in advance.
Maybe I’m being ignorant, I don’t mean to say that your wife’s disability is not sufficient to hold her back, if she can’t do it, she can’t do it, and it definitely sucks that she’s had her comfortable difficulty range taken away from her, but I think there are a thousand different ways that you could solve your own problem rather than having Blizz do it for you, and I think that’s the crux of why you’ve got so many people disagreeing with you in this thread.
This is true but I think getting a little off topic, Dwellknarr is talking about the current gap between Heroic and m0 where right now there is nothing and previously there used to be something that he enjoyed. It’s not actually about current m0s being too hard, it’s that the difficulty range he enjoyed playing in with his wife is now gone, and there’s nothing to replace it.
Straight answer is this: The key range that was removed was boring and tedious and served no purpose for the majority of m+ players other than to slow them down and create bad experiences. You don’t feel this way because that key range was actually relevant and significant to you for social reasons, that does not mean everyone else is wrong, and the solution you offered of squishing the key levels by removing every other key level instead of cutting the bottom 10 levels just shifts the difficulty jump issue up to other people, just palming your exact problem off onto a much larger group of players and calling it solved.
I’d be down to see something take the place of old low keys, as long as it isn’t on the progression path of the majority, for most players, the more streamlined, the better. Maybe some non-queueable “learning” dungeons with granular, selectable difficulties that don’t require keystones and can just be set by talking to an NPC in the dungeon. As long as they still only drop heroic dungeon level loot it wouldn’t be a problem for the majority to skip them, but it’d provide an adequate challenge for people who want something in that range. At this point though we’re running into an issue where Blizz is designing an entirely new system for basically just your group.
Progression for m+ has never been better imo, I get that this is totally subjective but I think it reflects a much greater percentage of m+ players than you and your wife. You can buy 450 ah greens on a fresh capped character, maybe do a few heroics if you need to, then go straight into m0s for 32 chances at loot a week (this is an extremely overkill number to get the gear you need for a +2). Honestly the main difference between running +2 and m0 is how much faster you get loot in m0.
TLDR: Literally why are you refusing to carry your disabled wife through m0s? This doesn’t have to be a big deal.
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I’ve been trying to mousewheel through this and skim, but there’s a lot here. There are a lot of people unhappy about the change because they feel like they’ve lost difficulties they used to run, and a lot of people that are fine with it and giving “git gud” comments/advice (intentionally just shorthanding this based on my skim, don’t read too much into my choice of words).
I guess the one thing I’m not sure I’m following is what did all the “git gud” folks gain from this? You all seem to be going to bat hard for the change, but as far as I can tell, nothing changed for you? Now you count to 20 instead of 30?
It just seems so odd for a change that doesn’t affect you in any way to come in and tell people who clearly enjoyed a game mode that they aren’t good enough to play the same game as you and they deserved this. Who cares if someone wanted to run an old 5? Were they really watering down your 25s? If they were bad, who cares? If they were drunk getting together with old guildies for the fun of it, who cares? It’s literally a game.
I’m not completely sure I follow the whole “now there’s a progression, and if you suck too bad, keep out”. If people were having fun playing it, it’s pretty strange to see you all happy that now they can’t. The less casuals players have fun, the less money there is to support challenging content. You should want these people to have a place, especially when it takes nothing from you.
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At the end of the day it doesn’t matter why it was done in the first place, what matters is that it’s done. I’m thankful that it happened.
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its generally faster to push up keys
thats kind of it, convenience
the idea was good in theory, i like that m0 was made relevant again, but at the end of the day id be running 24s with about the same enthusiasm im running 14s
well I believe gear needs to catch up right now as they scale things better.
Lets not forget a 2 right now is like a 12 last season, if you weren’t doing a 12 before you aren’t going to have fun now until your gear gets better.
The entire group helps to kill totems. I don’t see how it’s someone’s sole responsibility. And if damage is low, can always blame on tunnel vision.
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That very well could be. This makes perfectly logical sense.
At the same time though, this is a perception versus reality thing. It’s far easier to ignore (or possibly even not recognize) how oversized the contribution of someone else compared to your own when they aren’t on the same role. If I deal 5x the DPS of the other 2 DPS players combined on Details, it’s far harder to ignore the gap in performance. When all the DPS are in the same ballpark of one another, at least when considering the damage contribution, everyone was pulling a similar weight.
And it’s also not as cut and dry that these players would need extra healing compared to what a skill appropriate healer could provide. There definitely were some pulls where having a more experienced healer did make a different, I’m not suggesting otherwise. But there were also some runs that went pretty smoothly in terms of damage intake (even if that was purely accidental) where the group would have been similarly successful if we put a more appropriately skilled healer in my place and I just directed traffic watching someone stream on discord from the outside.
How long is “too long” though? Yes you can live them if they last longer than the average group should have them up if healer is up to par, but most healers will not be able to sustain efficient healing to a certain point if they stay up.
In addition to these 3, Melidrussa’s shield also falls into a similar category. I would agree that Bromach, Umbrelskul, and Melidrussa are things that could be healed through for significantly longer with a good enough healer (though not indefinitely), but Wratheye will not. Each stack of the withered debuff decreases your damage output and increases the explosion damage. So this is a fail-more mechanic; getting 1 debuff the first totem can lead to getting 2 more the second, 4 more the third, and so on. The DoT damage is pretty manageable for an overly experienced healer, but missing the early totems can snowball to the point where the explosion reaches lethal ranges on its own.
Beyond those 4 short-duration damage checks, there are also 2 fights with soft enrages where if the boss isn’t killed quickly enough, his damage will reach 1 shot levels - Magmorax and Crawth. Magmorax takes quite a while to reach 1-shot levels so with a good healer we can just assume anyone just pressing buttons in gear to not be 1-shot by everything in the dungeon will kill the mammoth. But Crawth is a legitimate concern for any group that is even just slightly below average on DPS. Sonic Vulnerability doesn’t take long to become threatening even at lower levels; and then because you are needing to stretch how through as many screeches as possible to make sure you don’t run out of resets, groups can wind up suffering deaths misjudging that balancing act.
I don’t, but I can understand why she doesn’t feel up to trying. She didn’t play S3 at all - our first child was born 3 days before S3 dropped. WoW is more of an escape for me than her, so I prioritized playing WoW in the free time as we got into the second half of the season; she decided to spend her free time on things she finds more relaxing.
So she would have to gear up from S2. There are certainly plenty of options available for her to do so, but they all take time that is more limited and neither one of us particularly enjoy.
But while that wouldn’t be hard or likely even take that long (in the context of an MMO anyway), she has major question marks about where she would hit her breakpoint. The range where she was engaged but not overwhelmed before is gone. It’s fully possible that even after going through the steps so many in these posts so helpfully provide to gear up that she isn’t able to be productive in M0. At that point, all the time she spent to prepare would have been a waste; if she enjoyed those activities and difficulties along the way getting the gear, it would likely be more tenable. But like me, she would view those as chores she’d rather not do. With the previous system, there was always a high level of confidence that after going through the minimum gearing process we’d land on a level that was appropriate for her abilities.
I’m not nearly as belligerent as many responded make me out to be. I truly do welcome solutions that might help. But I’m sure you can see the vast majority of suggestions amount to either git gear and git gud. There have been a couple suggestions that were more helpful, but unfortunately each one that I’ve seen is something she’s already tried to no success (such as the suggestion to have her play with a controller and a specific addon).
This is one of the concerns I do understand, and I have addressed a couple times. For one, I personally didn’t find that boring and tedious level to be a major drain on my own enjoyment, even in the seasons I played before my wife got into running keys. Going from one season to the next most players who were beyond those keys on geared toons didn’t start from that level in the first place. On new toons your linked IO from your main was good enough to get you into those keys on a PUG, and it only took an hour or 2 to +3 your way back up to an respectable level.
The only time when I found this to be super tedious an annoying were at the start of a new expansion, and that’s certainly a fair concern. But now it seems like a similar amount of time will need to be spent in heroic to get gear. The tedium seems like it will just shift to different difficulties, not go away.
We’ll need to see how this plays out (if nothing changes), but at least for me, I think it’s a bit overblown from the people bringing that up. But yes, that is a benefit that; the quoted section is something I was intending to be taken within context I built by going into this level of detail on that benefit in another section, but perhaps that context was lost and I certainly wasn’t clear. I apologize for not being clearer.
But even with all of that, I still don’t think that benefit outweighs the benefit having lower keys exist for overall game health. To be clear, I am not referring to groups like the ones I would play in with my wife, I mean across the player base long term. Every game will have attrition, no matter how good it is. 5 years from now, some portion of players in keys today will be playing fewer keys (if any); the only way to maintain a healthy population of key runners is to have fresh replacements. Significantly hampering the learning environment that low keys offered will do no favors for fostering this pipeline. While it’s a verifiable fact that 2 - 11 keys were run far less frequently than higher keys, we have no realistic way to determine how many of the players used or would in the future use the 2 - 11 keys that were run as a launchpad into those higher keys.
And to make sure it’s clear, I am NOT making the argument that we needed 10 ranges of keys from 2 - 11. By all means, remove every odd key and then squish from there. Create 2 keys below what is currently a M0 to provide something. I’m okay with solutions that reduce the tedium of working through those keys. I just don’t think the tedium problem was significant enough to warrant removing that wide of a range for current players to enjoy, or for current and future players to improve within.
I’m not. When my wife first picked up WoW to give us another activity we could do together, I largely did carry her through keys. She doesn’t like being a carry, she wants to feel like a contributing member of the key. That’s the entire reason she switched from the mage she would prefer to play to a balance druid she tolerates in DF S2. If she wanted to run M0 or keys regardless where her relative performance landed compared to the group, I happily would.
It’s not, the entire group is around the same damage level. It’s not about blame, it’s about the fact that the group is unable to get through the boss.
Yes, we could absolutely bring in a higher damage dealer and get through it. But the entire point of the group was to not have people feel like they are just there as a charity case.
Try getting better at the game, maybe?
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I’m easily clearing mythic zero with green pvp gear bought from the auction house. Starting to think its a skill issue.
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Yeah, at least that’s technically a win. I just don’t think it was worth it. My key chars would either take a key 2-5-8-11 and then never do these again, or literally just app to a few keys in the 'teens and then just start with a key that high. So at best this change is an improvement of 3 meaningless keys off the first day of the season, at worst it’s like 10-20 minutes of apping to a key already that high.
I think the garbage time keys for alts and silly fun stands out a lot in a week like this too. There was something to be said for hopping on to low alts and crushing 4 dungeons in the 2-7 range to complete the weekly for a Hero Raid piece (now Bullions). Sure, argument to be made those characters don’t “deserve” a piece like that. But one Hero piece every 1-2 months for an alt is just a good part of the FOMO machine, not really going to hurt anyone or take away from the accomplishment of high keys and mythic raiding. And as someone that plays lots of alts, that always feels good if 2 weeks from now I decide to swap off to another character, that I have a nice hero piece to start building from.
The suggestions some of us provided are based on the assumptions you and your wife have not tried it.
We do not know you. We do not know your wife. We are not going to ask multiple questions to help you to get to a solution that you and your wife need to make together.
Here is the major crux: this is an issue between you and your wife. Your wife and your friend group cannot meet the levels in S4 M+. Based on what you posted, it seems like they may even struggle through S4 M0. Heroics may be your team’s cap.
Have you done Heroics with your group? There is an assumption you and your group have not. Same with trying M0.
You and your wife do not want to do the gear pathing that Blizzard set up for S4. You want to jump in to low keys like you could in S3 and just stay in there. It doesn’t exist in this season. Blizzard is not going to make the changes for your wife. Adjustments to classes and bosses may occur through the season. You can expect probably that much.
You and your wife need to sit down and talk through what is important to the both of you and make solutions between each other. This is assuming you haven’t done this already. Again, we do not know you nor your wife.
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That’s fair, and I don’t mean to single anyone out with those suggestions. I’m certain there are a lot of folks who simply are trying to push too high too soon, and just because they could be carried in the low end of content for the season previously doesn’t mean they should always be able to skate by that way.
But my point is that there are specific reasons why the suggestions of getting gear or improving in my case face challenges. The group I’d like to be able to help through keys was historically between the level of current heroic and current M0 even with updated gear, and with nothing in between now, it’s hard to find an appropriate level. When the suggestion is made the first time, that’s one thing, but when it keeps getting suggested even within a quote reply where I explain why those suggestions don’t work, it gets tiresome to read.
Yes, I understand those are the only options within the current system. But I think the current system is worse than the previous system, and I would like to see Blizzard reconsider the change. Hence why I care to provide the feedback.
I have run with a few of the folks that were in that group in heroics, and it was a decent difficulty for them. Of course we are still low on gear, so who knows how long heroics will remain a good spot for the group.
My wife hasn’t even logged into the game. She skipped S3 entirely because we had our first child 3 days before the season launched. She has the free time now that our kiddo is a bit older, but doesn’t want to bother. She saw the changes to mythics and how the entry point is now above where she’s always felt comfortable and decided it wasn’t going to be worth the time to gear up from S2 gear and toil in a difficulty that previously was trivial within a few weeks of the season (current heroic) only to hit a wall that’s beyond where she previously could reach.
Could my wife reach a point of proficiency within M0 if she tried? Perhaps. But I also can’t fault her for not wanting to run what are effectively chores when her level of confidence that she can reach such a level is so low. For as flawed as it might have been, at least with the previous key system there was always a high level of confidence we’d be able to find a difficulty level that suited her at nearly every gearing point, making the the investment of initial gearing in less enjoyable content more likely to pay off.
This glosses over an important point, which I touched on in the previous paragraph. It’s not just that we don’t want to follow the S4 gear path, it’s that given the experience of past seasons, it’s not assured that even with the gear we’d reach the level where keys start. Both she and I will invest the time into improving our characters with content we enjoy less if there is a high likelihood that will set us up for success in the content we do. It’s just quite possible that even after getting the gear, she won’t be ready to be a contributing member of a difficulty level that she’s never been able to be productive within in previous seasons. And if that happens, then all that gearing time will feel wasted.
She’s just decided she isn’t going to play until TWW and will find other ways to enjoy her free time. That actually might free me up to run more high keys than I could in S3 because the time I wasn’t running with that lower guild group will be free to push higher. I would just enjoy the game more if I’d get to play more content with her at a level we could both enjoy.
Nah, it ‘forces’ you to play alts that you don’t feel like playing that week.
Oh that definitely can happen. I’m not saying FOMO is always good for the individual, just a business strategy, lol.
That being said, in playing tons of alts during those weeks for multiple expansions now myself, there are certainly players that enjoyed breaking out lesser played alts. I wasn’t just running all those keys by myself, and we usually had a lot of fun. (DOZENS OF US! DOZENSSSS)
I’m just providing the feedback for future iterations that the benefits for players from “removing these tedious key levels” is not even close to the silly joy from having them available, even for niche play. And for people claiming that the 2-10 grind was “tedious” and kept you from the real key levels, I worry about you all, lol.
I am going out to call myself a noob when it comes to dungeons. I can do the follower dungeon and they can be fun. I can do heroic but that requires me to queue up and I’ll get randomly thrown into a group, still fun. Mythics are an entirely different beast and I’m having a hard time with them.
Last season to get that mount I did the world tour to get my Mythics’s done. So far for this week I am trying to get the weekly done and managed to get 1 group after 20+ declines and I have an item level of 489 on my Enhancement Shaman. Definitely tougher than last time I did a Mythic, but I managed to get two champion pieces, 1 replacing the champion piece I can’t upgrade (hotfix didn’t fix) and other weaker than what I already had.
I don’t have an authenticator so can’t really understand how to make those groups and my skill level for Mythics is hampered by my disability of amputated fingers on my mouse hand. I don’t really understand what the different is between the Mythic and Mythic + when creating groups or joining groups because I see 0 and + 0 listed in the finder.
If I knew people, knew where to go or had an easier time finding people to group up that would be one thing but without that and maybe my ilvl is too low why I am having a hard time. I’m sorry but I just don’t get the fact Mythic doesn’t give better options to find a group even for noobs like me.
When you go to the premade groups tab, there will be two dropdowns at the top of the panel. It usually defaults to mythic+, but you can set your group for mythic in the dropdown, and it will default to 0.
If you want to look for groups that are only for mythic and not mythic+, there is a filter option next to the search bar at the top of the panel that allows you to fine-tune your search, you can choose which dungeons to filter out, what kind of groups, and what difficulty of dungeon at the very bottom. You can uncheck mythic+ to only search for normal mythic groups, so that should help.
At 489, you can definitely do mythic 0 and even +2 if you feel comfortable with it. Unfortunately, since you are DPS, you will have to go through a lot of declines since there are just so many DPS to choose from. It likely has less to do with your ilvl and more to do with them just having a lot of DPS to choose from, try not to feel personally rejected, it’s not to do with you.
I would recommend trying to find a group of players to play with regularly if possible, especially if you get a good group of chill people, it’s worth trying to btag them for future runs. Or trying to find a guild that focuses on M+. This will help you get into groups more regularly. Hope this has helped.