But that is a solution. They want a “adequate” experience just for them. Buffing heroics by 50%, might actually do that. (Then others would complain.)
A +5 key would exist, which is about what they’re complaining that is missing.
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You’re right I’m not, and furthermore I don’t really care. People are always complaining that stuff is too hard, and they’ve ruined many MMOs imo. My experience and frustration is that Heroics were a joke and the delta between them and M0 was too big. Instead of a smooth progression arc gearing up in Heroics preparing for M0s it became a slog because heroics were trivial.
Here’s my counter point. If players were asking for the top end dungeons with the best rewards to get nerfed that would be something entirely different. Players aren’t asking for the best rewards on an easier difficulty. They are asking for harder difficulties than the heroic but easier than M0 while having a reasonable reward for doing that. We had this before. We used to have more difficulties and they awarded the reward track veteran gear which isn’t awarded now in dungeons.
We fully agree here. But I don’t think we want to make heroic harder. We need a difficulty step between heroic and M0 to challenge people who think heroic is too easy but to provide an enjoyable experience for people who think M0 is too difficult. The tech exists because it was there before… this is simply a compromise.
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When you have a consistent group on the same characters, it’s not that hard to believe. One of the driving factors for me spending the time doing this is so a handful of guild mates could run M+ at levels they found engaging without feeling like a leech. If these players could meet the average community standard for DPS in a PUG, they probably would have actually PUGed some of these keys.
Which we still have today (it’s actually objectively worse), which is part 1 of the problem. Your suggestion to raise heroic to be even harder would solve this though, so I will give you credit that you do acknowledge this is a problem.
Part 2 is the fact that there were players happy within key ranges that were removed when Blizzard upped the scaling of M0 to be aligned with a former +10.
Part 3 is that the learning environment for players to improve in order to reach a level of proficiency for M+ has become a disjointed mess compared to what it was before. Players used to be able to work their way up a progression path with incremental difficulty increases in a system that self-corrected the difficulty the players should be in. Now, players have to farm a static difficulty for an indeterminate amount of time to become useful for an 85% scaling bump with more mechanics and week long loot lockout. Only after farming that, and unrelated game modes entirely for enough gear, can they attempt the M+ game mode which has different rule set.
This is the nastiest reply and ratio I’ve ever seen on these forums
Damn
Part 3 is that the learning environment for players to improve in order to reach a level of proficiency for M+ has become a disjointed mess compared to what it was before.
People die, people live when they learn, and repeat.
It’s always been the same.
What people miss is probably getting carried while dead.
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Who knows? You can assume it has to do with making money at the subscriber’s expense.
The issue is less M0 and more the ease of heroics.
The intention was
Normal - - - - Heroics - - - - M0
The reality is
Normal - Heroics - - - - - M0
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No, intention was a huge leap from start. To clearly segregate for fun content and challenging content.
I think just splitting the difference and making a heroic the equivalent of an old ~+4 or +5 accomplishes the same thing in a cleaner way and does so while allowing people to utilize party finder instead of having to fight private grouping hassles.
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Clearly you haven’t seen Blizzards chart which illustrates exactly what I said, I’m not making my own assumption here I’m using what they outlined themselves.
Search for “Dungeon Progression Update” and you’ll find Blizzard has a chart showing
Normal - - - - - Heroic - - - - - - M0
I remember taking over an hour to clear deadmines. You had to cc, and the old you spank it you tank it mentality.
Do we have anyone struggling in heroics that can complain? That’s all it takes really.
Not sure if you bothered to read what you’re to or the thread at all because this reply doesn’t fit here. No one’s struggling with heroics because they’re not currently a difficulty bump over normal dungeons. That’s the issue.
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The difficulty bump could be there, just people don’t notice it. (Because it’s extremely easy.)
Just think, bosses might live to use one ability, it’s too much for the 10 min dungeon crowd (from normal to heroic.)
How much hp do bosses have on normal vs heroic?
Bosses do 3X DAMAGE wow.
(normal vs heroic.)
Do heroics and LFR, get awakened world gear, vault drops and bullion gear until you’re 490ish. Normal raid and Mythic 0 until you’re 500ish. Choose the right talents, deck out your gear with enchants etc, stock up on consumables, and start your keys.
I am the one this system was created for. I really don’t like timed content. I won’t be touching mythic plus. So for me, getting to at least 502 ilvl for each piece of gear is end game for me. Now I’m just going to practice practice practice until I’ve mastered my four specs for this ilvl of content. When bored, I go to my alt.
My 467 hunter is ready to start this fun trip.
And people are more likely to learn when they’re doing something at a level that is challenging enough they have to pay attention but not so challenging that every single mistake is punishable by death. The more granular the number of difficulties, the more likely it is that a difficulty appropriate for the skill and gear level of any given player will be met.
People are more likely to queue up for a dungeon they have a chance at getting loot from than if they do not. M0 having a week long loot lockout discourages multiple play throughs in the week. This discourages multiple play throughs of M0 in the week once players have graduated from heroic, despite being the only dungeon stepping stone between heroic and M+2.
As an aside, I am genuinely surprised by how controversial the impact on places to learn seems to be with this change. I do not know how folks can unironically try to argue that the current environment is the same or better for players to learn for M+ than the previous system. I can understand the people who thought there was too much granularity with the system as a whole. But people genuinely trying to argue that players needing to farm heroic far beyond the point of being trivial for gear, moving to other game modes like LFR to supplement the gear they can’t get due to a loot lockout in M0, and the sheer existence of YouTube videos and dungeon journal will be just as good for learning as players having 10 levels of difficulty within the same rule set and with a chance for loot at the end of each one is mind-boggling for me.
That would be better for players to learn, for sure. I would certainly welcome that change over how the system works today.
But even setting the concern of failable queue content aside (there were people who failed old 4-5 keys previously), that still wouldn’t serve as a replacement for the old system. We probably didn’t need 10 levels between old M0 and old M+10 (the scaling points for current heroic and M0), but going from a 5 to a 10 would still be a 59% jump in scaling (which we didn’t see until 22 > 23 in the previous system). And then going from the new M0 > current M+2 still adds 39% scaling, an affix, and timer.
There were flaws with having so many barely noticeable scaling jumps with the old system. Like I said, we probably didn’t need 10 with an average scaling bump of 8.5%. But having a nearly 40% scaling bump WITH the addition of fortified or tyrannical for the first step into keys, it’s still a pretty big jump.
I don’t think this is in good faith. If people live, most did not learn cause they got healed through it. Then suddenly, they drop dead, and start learning then.
I did not know you could dodge statues in Halls of Atonement until way later… cause they killed me in one hit.
Heroic bosses do 3x more damage. Do we need normal 2, normal 3? etc.
It’s more nuanced than this, it’s not just live = no learning and dead = max learning. If a mechanic does basically no damage to someone, they aren’t likely to learn, that’s definitely true. But having a 1-shot mechanic is not always going to be clear to the user either. Having a mechanic that deals enough damage that a player will die over the course of several seconds that they can react to is generally the best way of encouraging this.
For purely learning, that probably would be a positive.
But the issue isn’t how big the jump is relative to the previous difficulty, how big the hit is relative to the player’s capabilities is. As easy as heroic is, for any character that actually needs gear from heroic, not doing a mechanic is still going to chip a noticeable amount of damage off a player’s health pool; it just is still within a global our 2 from the healer so it’s not as threatening. But that means the 85% jump going to M0 is even more noticeable and potentially lethal (especially if the healer isn’t keeping everyone topped at all times).
The main problem I see for the learning environment is that we have large scaling plus new mechanics plus changing rule sets every level going from heroic to M0 to M+2. And M0 also can’t even be repeated for loot more than once a week. The need for additional levels in between adjacent difficulty levels is in this range. Normal > heroic doing 3x the damage is a huge scaling jump, but when a normal geared character takes less than 10% of their health by screwing up a mechanic, it’s not nearly as demanding of the group to react quickly than when the 85% scaling for that mechanic going from heroic > M0 knocks 70% health off a player.
No, that 85% jump isn’t anywhere near lethal unless if it’s designed to kill, and the 50% hp from previous difficulty didn’t give people enough of a hint.
I think you’re proving my point. They got healed through it in heroic cause it’s half, then they barely live on mythic 0, before finally dying in +2.
What ends up happening is people standing in it for the three difficulties then maybe finally getting a hint.
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