My wife swapped to Ret Paladin because of the less moving parts compared to Mage. So I understand the situation.
I saw this in someone else you responded to:
My wife has put dozens of hours into trying to improve in M+. She even changed class from the one she wanted to play to one with fewer keybinds so she could feel like less of a liability in 4-8 keys from previous seasons. She has physical limitations that create a lower performance ceiling than many other players. This idea that the only people who might struggle to perform in what are now +2s are those who give zero effort is absurd.
Have your wife ever considered using a different mechanical input device to help?
I cannot play this game with the standard keyboard. When I first picked up this game again two years ago, I tried and I barely could deal damage and move. I tried doing dungeons, but I stress on hand hands became too much.
I moved over to a numb-pad keyboard accessory with a joystick attacked to it. It is intended to be played with one hand, joystick is moved with the thumb. I tried that for almost a year. It did help, but not enough.
My wife convinced to try the ConsolePort addon. It is an addon that allows the use of console controllers in WoW. That worked for me. I was more comfortable playing with a controller with some keyboard use. This was something I did all the way back in FFXI on PC… where you could use a PS2 controller to play the game. My prior MMO to coming back to WoW was FFIXV, where I exclusively used an Xbox controller (and one time a Switch Controller… don’t recommend it).
My mechanical limitations where bypassed by ConsolePort. I am able to play this game similar to the ease in FFIXIV… more so since I can access more keybinds with ConsolePort. I don’t even have to use the mouse to target other party members, I have it set up to use the D-Pad to do it. Same with selecting enemies. Movement is done with the joycons, etc. No different than playing a console game.
There are certainly people out there who it does not bother to be clearly carried through content. But there are others who certainly do, if they feel like their being carried and they feel like everyone in the group feels like they are carrying them, they wont do the content.
I can’t say how many of those there are but I know my wife and I are both in that content. I turn down a lot of higher keys from friends that are several levels higher than my best keys because I know those players are far better geared and far more experienced. While they may not care their carrying me - I care.
I’m looking for the goldilocks zone where I don’t feel carried but I also don’t feel out of my depth.
Even if you’re not being carried in the strict term, I can see playing some ramp specs to be a pain playing lower difficulty than your gear could allow, like unholy dk. Before you can have 4 stacks of festering wounds so you can use Apocalypse, stuff is already dead.
Pressing a button is effort. If it’s too much to execute the game mechanics, then you probably won’t complete the content nor get the rewards. There are plenty of easy, time-waster games out there; World of Warcraft is not one of them.
well in my case, I just play easy classes like vengeance or brewmaster or beastmaster.
In the case of the guy arguing on behalf of his wife, pretty sure is a bad actor though or just someone jaded and doesn’t care about answers.
He glossed over peoples advice and ignored mine (and others) post giving advice for the people he supposedly plays with. All he does is keep arguing for easier content, and ignores everyone with actual advice (again not just mine) and just wants to argue more.
Plenty of easy classes that can solo mythic 0 TODAY, and if they can solo mythic 0 they can do it in a team shrug. And a couple people suggested to them (me being one) that they play slow and take their time and not rush to get items, but they ignored that too.
This is so ingenuine it’s laughable. No one is advocating easier content. We’re asking for a smoother transition through difficulties that previously existed. It would be one thing entirely if the difficulties were the same as last season and people were in here asking for something easier than last seasons 0 between heroic and 0. All we’re saying is you took away what was 0 through 9 and now we just shoot straight into 10. Stop trying to act like this is people asking for something easier - this is people asking for something more similar to what they had become accustomed to.
I don’t know, the math isn’t mathing this season. In full conquest gear last season, KSM was a face roll at 478 ilvl. According to that math, a +5 should be the same experience. Dungeons are definitely more difficult for me and the groups I’m in at a +2 at 502 ilvl currently. Highly doubt it’s me personally since KSM at least means you have some understanding of general mob and boss mechanics.
I mean, I suck at games and WoW, and have left advice even in that post that still got ignored.
So all I can see is arguing for easier content for the sake of easier content lol. I don’t even DO hard content, I have really bad arthritis in my hands so can’t really play professionally or high end mythics AND use an xbox one controller and can still do mythic 0 xD
Like I’ll just repeat it again
I don’t rush, I don’t do hard stuff, I take my time and still enjoy the game. Do I die a lot? yeah, but I do progress slowly (very slowly). And there are plenty of easy laid back classes (mostly tanks and beastmaster).
Like dying is part of games sometimes and like in dwarf fortress the saying literally is “dying is fun”, its just a game anyway so if die not really much lost if just focused on having fun. Not like dying in WOW has any real life consequence, unless maybe part of an esport team I guess and then you lose money I’d assume
My litmus test for DPS has always been just do more dps than I do as the tank. Then I credit them consideration if their noticeably good at stops, interrupts, and utilities. Unfortunatley, a lot of dps that aren’t presenting well on meters usually are either dead most of the time or aren’t even bothering to use their utility abilities. Their spamming a sub optimal random subset of abilities hoping the group succeeds.
I have not really noticed the meter spam to party chat that we used to experience from elitist players which I think is a good thing. But I wonder how many bad DPS dont run a dps meter and just dont know how bad their output is compared to their peers let alone care.
From what I’m seeing even Towelliees tank damage is on par or better than dps in his keys. He was pulling upwards of 300k on pull as a tank. It stabilized around 200kish tho with one other player.
I wouldn’t know - I don’t look at or compare my own performance to streamers. I just know that generally speaking over the course of a whole dungeon - as a tank, I expect the dps to out DPS me.
If they can’t then I might as well bring a 2nd tank to DPS who can soak mechanics and live through them. \0/
aug might be awful, but that doesn’t mean that player, playing dps, wouldn’t also be awful.
I just don’t see how the game is better that we’re expecting players wanting to reach the entry point of an endgame gameplay option to play a different class because all difficulty levels below what was the midway point for keys last season were dropped.
They don’t need to play a different class. They can get better or get carried on their current one.
I use cast sequence macros to simplify what I have to do.
And if the problem is standing in stuff, just play classes with better survivability, so you can stand in stuff. (To a point.)
MRT or weakaura telling them they should use defensives might be all it takes. (And stop trying to dodge.)
They sure can, but that doesn’t really help the situation with my wife and me that I’m referring to. I have replied to a lot of these threads so perhaps you didn’t see this.
There are several guild mates of mine, plus my wife, that are all in the old 4-8 key range once fully geared. Our guild has gotten AOTC every season since BFA S3, so fully geared for these folks is full heroic gear. All of them are near the bottom of the raid’s performance, but being a friends and family guild, participation in raid is more about killing bosses with good people. So long as the bosses die, and they have so far for us in heroic, nobody cares about some underperformers being carried by overperformers.
Once or twice a week, I would organize some time for those folks to run keys for several hours without the pressure imposed if we added any outside players. They enjoyed running dungeons at a difficulty level that is appropriate for the entire group, except for myself, and I would intentionally bring a healer. The intention was to face a challenge at a level appropriate for the group that we’d almost always finish and sometimes time. Just getting to the end wasn’t the goal, the goal was to allow them to play a game mode they enjoyed where nobody would scream at them for not being perfect and they can feel like they are contributing.
We could certainly have brought in some overpowered DPS to carry them, but that wouldn’t have served the mission of the group. The objective wasn’t just to get the prize at the end of the rainbow, it was truly because they enjoyed the journey. And that journey is gone.
We still have avenues for getting the gear and achievements that were available in those ranges today. But while I can’t speak too much about my other guildies, my wife has no interest in being a carry. She’d rather not play if that was going to be her experience key-in, key-out. The previous key structure allowed for that to not happen; the new one simply does not without marked improvement on her part. She does not have access to better gear than she did in the previous system but her skillset limited her to below where M0 starts today, much less M+.
She tried my Azeron keypad, but she could only hit 8 of the keys because pulling her fingers up to reach the upper ones was a problem. She can’t use any controller except ones with gyroscopes because her wrists cramp.
I do greatly appreciate the suggestions, this is the kind of interaction I wish gamers would have with relation to disabilities. Any and all ways to work around limitations is great. Unfortunately, we have not found an input mechanism that simultaneously is more usable for her limitations than a standard keyboard that also has enough inputs to be a suitable replacement for a keyboard. If we could find one, that would be amazing.
Honestly, that’s just BS. My wife doesn’t want to feel like a leech in the group, enjoys M+, but her ceiling once in heroic raid gear is below the entry point for keys (not heroic or M0, keys). The advice people like you are giving me is she needs to farm gear and smack a training dummy some more. But that ceiling she hits is after getting gear and her limitations are due to a disability, not lack of effort.
I did not ignore that call whatsoever. 6 of 8 dungeons this season have at least 1 boss with a DPS check that is basically a guaranteed wipe if missed with a group of difficulty-appropriate skill/gear leveled players. I would argue a 7th dungeon also has a boss requiring a DPS check that is a probable wipe, though it’s not nearly as strict and thus might be possible to get through with a very on-the-ball healer.
It doesn’t matter how slow you take the dungeon if your group can’t muster the damage to get through those checks. And those checks are the reason why the group I am talking about running with could not usually get beyond an 8 (and we usually depleted the +8s we ran) in heroic raid gear, not players butchering mechanics.
So yes, we could bring in someone who will deal more damage. I could bring this character rather than a lower geared healing alt and meet the check no problem. But that would diminish their experience which was the entire bloody point of us running the key in the first place.
Sure can. Or my wife will just choose not to play which is the direction she has gone. So one fewer person playing the game and a second person would is having less fun than if he could play with his wife some in game. These are personal problems for sure, but ones that I don’t think need to exist to achieve any of the goals have been floated for why this change was made.
In her case, it’s about meeting damage checks. She’s actually pretty good with not standing in bad, using kicks/stops, and not pulling extra mobs. In different seasons perhaps she would be able to reach an acceptable level of performance for an M0 if there were few DPS-or-wipe mechanics. But with a dungeon pool where 6 of 8 have at least one boss with such a mechanic, that makes it pretty tough to get by with lower DPS unless someone else is there to carry you. Which isn’t much fun for her.
There are no really relevant damage checks in a +2.
EVERYONE must be absolutely playing below average for them to be remotely relevant.
But with a dungeon pool where 6 of 8 have at least one boss with such a mechanic, that makes it pretty tough to get by with lower DPS unless someone else is there to carry you. Which isn’t much fun for her.
You mean how like 3 people do the dungeon, and the other two are cheerleader due to performance gap?
Just because content is easier, doesn’t mean the drastic skill disparity between the players won’t exist.
Unless if you go out of your way not to play with good players, I don’t see how this wouldn’t be true.