removal of low level keys, allows people to try challenging content without needing to run lesser content for score (so others would take them.)
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We liked running keys that were at an appropriate level of the group. If the group were capable of running +15s, that’s what we would have run. We weren’t even steamrolling them, we depleted most of the +7s and +8s we ran. The level of difficulty of the keys compared to your standards had nothing to do with our desire to run the key. 3 weeks ago this group had an appropriately challenged place to run keys, today we do not.
But if you want to keep calling me a liar, that’s entirely up to you.
You’re right, I should have been more clear. That was my mistake.
I still think much of the pushback is with the fact that for most of the time it has been in the game, including the time when it was at its most popular (per number of keys run), there was basically a level for every player that reached endgame. And so players who were happy to have low keys (for any reason) that now don’t are not happy.
I’m really not. Most of my comments have been about my experiences and where my group is because that’s where the most engagement is. When I have tried to dig into the “who does this benefit” angle, very few people even acknowledge the question, and nearly everyone who has acknowledged it have just told me to git gud.
Did players who wanted challenging untimed/affixless content get that with this change? Yes, they got one difficulty scaled at a former +10 with a weekly loot lockout. And in order to reach that level they have to toil in the same heroic gearing wasteland far longer than heroic will be engaging as those who want to work up to keys. While this is certainly better than nothing, does that actually accomplish what those players wanted? I don’t mean this as a leading question, I’m truly asking because I am not part of the people who were asking for this.
How about the players who wanted more qualified people in their keys that couldn’t fail upward? Will there be more players that make it into +2s prepared to succeed when they have a reverse progression environment gearing for heroic to prepare for M0, and then M0 has a week loot lock? Forcing players into non-dungeon content that only awards better gear on weekly lockouts will make them more prepared for higher difficulties of that non-dungeon content? The people who keep wanting to pretend like every 2 - 11 group were mindless face rolls with no learning are clearly out of touch both with how those keys went for groups that weren’t overqualified and on the human learning process. There will be a much smaller pipeline of players that make it into M+ now than did before, and not just because of the quality of the players that want to move up into those modes.
How about for M+ players that were well into +12s and above? For geared toons from a previous season they just skip everything below a +2 so there’s no functional change. When preparing a fresh(er) toon at the start of a season or expansion, they will now have to play the same game of farming a static difficulty for gear before they can get into an M0 as those wanting to get into keys; at best this is no change but will be exceptionally boring for most. The only possible benefit for these players is not having to push up a +2 to a range that isn’t trivial when they are on a fresh character that isn’t rolling over a slightly diminished key from the previous season.
When I say I don’t understand who benefits from this change, this is why I say that, not just the lowbie groups I might be a part of. There are small benefits here or there that exist, but every one of those benefits could have been solved in other ways, and I’ve suggested a way for each one. If I’m missing some benefit, I’m happy to discuss it. But I just don’t see most of the goals that have been articulated as having been met, and the ones that were have only been partially met.
You really are, and I am not reading all of that. The bottom line is there will always be a subset of players impacted by difficulty scaling. You want to create walls of text to fight for your particular position without any regard to anyone else who may be impacted by you removing these barriers just so that you can play with your wife at the difficulty that works for you. As long as you can get into m+ it’s all good though, right? Don’t worry about Jimmy who could only run heroic last season and now can only do normal.
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Objectively, they didn’t do this. Heroic > M0 is between 2 - 4 times more difficult scaling wise (depending on fortified or tyrannical) than it was under the old system. The progression from normal > M+ is significantly more stark today by any objective metric than it was under the old system. If this was the intent of the change, Blizzard failed; and unlike most discussions, that can demonstrated through numbers, it’s not just subjective in this case.
Do you honestly think most PUGs are going to take people with no score into +2s now even once the environment stabilizes in a few weeks and we don’t have everyone and their dog trying to funnel into the low end? There are people that week 2 of a season wouldn’t invite people to their heroic raid who didn’t already have AOTC. I find it far more likely that group leaders in PUGs will only invite those that have already gotten some score already, and that scoreless group leaders will see basically no tanks or healers queue.
Perhaps that was a goal. But it seems highly suspect that this will be how it plays out.
I’m sorry I wrote more than you would like. That “wall of text” explains why I don’t think most of the stated goals were met by this implementation. And that lack of understanding has absolutely nothing to do with the players who were cut out of a mode they have been able to enjoy since BFA S1. But if you can’t be bothered to read my actual thoughts, then I have no interest in having you try to tell me what my thoughts are, and I wish you a good day.
In fairness, your thoughts are the same word salad served over and over on a new chilled plate.
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I guess you’ll never know since you chose not to read them. Good day.
I haven’t done any M0 this season and just hopped directly into M+. There’s definitely something off about the difficulty curve this season.
- Does M0 only reward gear 1x per week? If so, that’s a pretty hard cap in prepping for M+ and should be revisited.
- The gear level in Heroics is too poor. If Heroic is attempting to replace old +2 - +9, the gear should be better. It should feel worth doing. It currently doesn’t and honestly you get better gear just doing the weekly events + LFR.
- Players are not prepared for +2s. The amount of people I’ve carried so far this season is like 90% in the +2 range. They’re frankly just not good enough to be doing that content, but there’s nothing that stops them from doing it.
Do you honestly think most PUGs are going to take people with no score into +2s now even once the environment stabilizes in a few weeks and we don’t have everyone and their dog trying to funnel into the low end?
yes.
You’re gonna be choosing between people who have done +2s of a different dungeon vs people who haven’t done a dungeon. Rather equivalent.
Even so… history is a great litmus test to determine outcomes. Cataclysm was Blizzards last grand attempt to re-institute a grand difficulty returning it to heroics. Look how well that went. Players hated it.
You simply can’t give something to players and take it away and expect there not to be push back. It’s par for the course.
They always overtune stuff and then dial it back every single raid teir. Nerfs are expected.
How often do you see blizzard BUFF the difficulty of anything once it makes its way to live?
This should absolutely be revisited. The difficulty scaling is not the best, but it’s certainly not insurmountable. M0 loot should not be locked out.
Wife
Question, Dwelknar, I don’t know what role your wife plays, but do you think your wife’s role may also may be keeping her at a specific limitation?
Personal Experience:
My wife doesn’t play healer nor tanks. Back in Rath, when she raided, she raided as a Mage. She leveled a Holy Paladin back then, but never did anything with it. She isn’t able to concentrate on healing plus all of the other mechanics needed to complete the raid. I say “isn’t” because it is a literal cap for her skill wise even to this day. She doesn’t do any endgame at all today. If she chose to do any endgame, it would be DPS and an easier one than mage (she’s dumped her mage and moved to Ret Paladin as her main).
My wife has put dozens of hours into trying to improve in M+. She even changed class from the one she wanted to play to one with fewer keybinds so she could feel like less of a liability in 4-8 keys from previous seasons. She has physical limitations that create a lower performance ceiling than many other players. This idea that the only people who might struggle to perform in what are now +2s are those who give zero effort is absurd.
The reality is my wife enjoys keys. She enjoys playing keys with her husband and guildies without feeling like a complete carry. Two weeks ago she had a key range where she could do so. Today she does not. And it’s not because she simply wants to show up for free shinies without putting in the work.
Play aug or heal for easiest performance and least effort.
I don’t think your correct. Your going to have people who have done those on alts already and people who haven’t done it at all. Your not going to take the people with no experience over those with experience. Your always going to take the best combination of IO (current or past season) and gear.
The players with minimal io have no chance when we have 1200 - 2000 - 3100s floating around in the low end.
people are only doing low keys now because of the quest.
Once that’s gone, they’re gonna be doing higher things.
She plays ranged DPS. She started on a mage, and still would prefer to play a mage. She has since switched to balance druid because it has far fewer moving parts than any spec of mage and I can actually help her with druid compared to mage.
Aug is god awful in low keys if everyone sits around the same level. Dragonflight healing is all about reacting quickly because of all the burst that’s going out - that is her problem with dealing damage today.
But honestly even if we could find a spec that would allow her to perform better, that entire line of thinking entirely misses the mark. She wants to play a mage; she’s already compromised by switching to a class that is mechanically simpler and her husband has played for literally more than half his life at this point. Just like how she’s decided she isn’t going to bother with WoW for this season due to the changes, she would make the same decision if the “answer” to her problem is to play a different class or role.
If someone feels someone of my wife’s skill level no longer belongs in M+, that’s fine. I just don’t see how the game is better that we’re expecting players wanting to reach the entry point of an endgame gameplay option to play a different class because all difficulty levels below what was the midway point for keys last season were dropped. To each their own, I suppose.
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The reason we have people running 0s is because is that they drop drake crests. Which you need for the 4 bottom upgrades of Wyrm gear which you get starting at M2 including the wyrm crests. So to upgrade your champion gear you have to run 0s and normal raids. That’s why we’re seeing people with higher diffiuclty experience slumming it in the 0s. Can’t explain the players doing 2s instead.
i acknowledge the quest is a motivator this week but the previous two weeks were the same.
It’s still there.
Yup. It’s just that a bunch of people need to internalize that they’re going to need to put in the time and effort to learn the dungeons and get gear from every source they can.
1 single strong dps can provide the required dps to get through a M0 or M2.
There is definitely room to have your wife be dps carried, and I think that is the easier thing to help carry more than being dead. Doing poor dps is much better then doing 0 dps.
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