To be fair, M0 is not tough with adequate gear. I did M=2-4 the first week w/ 470ish gear and it was tough. Full heroic gear gives you 476 and is upgradable to 489. If you are around 480 ilvl for M0, it should be easy given you do the mechanics. In M0, you still have to do mechanics.
I believe in these people. Once they understand boss and dungeon mechanics and get a few upgrades they should be able to knock out these m0s no problem! It may take this small percentage of people a bit more time, but it’s worth it. There is no rush in this season.
Ok but you run into the exact same problem we’re running in now, except drawn out. If there’s no timer, there’s no way to know if the group is really ready for the next one, until you break your face on a boss and come and complain here… hey exactly like now!
It’s supposed to be the new dungeon endgame for those with timer phobia. Endgame isn’t mean to be done and dusted on 2nd week.
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I’m sorry, what? In DF seasons 1 - 3, there was 0% base scaling from M0 to M+2, fortified gave trash 20% health and 30% damage while tyrannical gave bosses 30% health and 15% damage, and an identical set of mechanics for both. In DF S4, there is an 85% increased scaling between heroic and M0, as well as additional mechanics on enemies. If M0 > M+2 was a brick wall in previous seasons, this season the jump from heroic > M0 is a 6 foot thick lead wall.
And that’s to say nothing of the 8 - 14% increase in scaling between each key level from 2 to 10 (which is the scaling of M0) now to slowly progress up to that “lead wall”. It’s fine if you think the shifting of the significant scaling increase moving to heroic > M0 is a good change, but mathematically speaking, this jump is between 2 and 4 times steeper than it was from M0 > M+2 in any previous season depending if it’s fortified or tyrannical that week.
There are quite a few issues with the dungeon scaling at the moment:
- The jump from heroic to M0 is too large. Heroic is a breeze while M0 is too much for many players.
- M0 has no rating system so you cannot check a players score to see if they know the fights.
- M0 should be queueable.
With M0 being such a jump and needing to find groups the issue is that people overthink it and expect ridiculously high ilvl’s. For example my DPS is sitting at 486 and if I PUG then it takes 30 mins to find a single run. Is this a problem related to not having a mythic score? is it because you cant queue?
Hard to tell either way but unless you have a guild to run with its very difficult to get started in any mythic content. At the same time heroic is just far too easy and provides no challenge.
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This is the exact issue I have. I decided to main one of my alts this season and I literally cant get a start in any public mythic content. Sure I can run some +2’s with the guild if I really wanted to get started but its a pain to get that going when everyone is already doing +10’s.
At 488ilvl I might get one or two M0 runs in a night after applying to 30+ groups and getting denied.
If there is not going to be a mythic score on M0 then at least you should be able to queue for it with a minimum ilvl.
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Holy heck you buried me in a wall of text.
It’s true I don’t parse much of anything most of the time, but I haven’t cared since classic lol. Id fare better if I was actually accountable to a guild which I am also not really part of.
I do just enough to get by with minimal effort. And it was minimal effort to look at your profile under two minutes to make any sort of analysis.
Even then I see the changes as a net positive for the health of keys overall.
My sympathies regarding your family affairs. I am just throwing some barbs on the forums, and I sincerely enjoy the changes.
I pay a lot of attention to what teammates do (I often heal) and usually see what they did wrong (even when it isn’t them dying). I’m evaluating constantly, not waiting till X deaths. Here’s some things I consider:
- how are they dying? (I don’t care what they say, I check Details unless I already saw where they failed)
- did it cause a wipe?
- do they seem to be learning / improving? (communication helps a lot)
- are we progressing, or wiping in the same spot multiple times?
- how many deaths vs how far in the dungeon are we?
- are the other players also learning, or is this one an outlier that is wasting everyone’s time? (more important if their deaths are causing wipes)
- am I the group leader? what role are they? (can they be replaced or the dungeon finished without them?)
- what role am I? (if the other players want to finish the dungeon and I don’t, will me leaving make it hard to get a replacement?)
I enjoy challenge, so it is extremely rare that I kick someone or abandon the group.
I mostly saw they weren’t engaging any further because there wasn’t an automated queue for it.
I’d sign up for H+ 2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10 if it was an option.
This is a solid quantification of the issue, and while I personally see these changes as a huge win, I can definitely see some players getting left behind by this jump in scaling.
At the end of the day, the more granular control over difficulty you give the players, the less people feel stuck, but the downside is having most of those difficulties be essentially pointless for any individual player. The devs obviously felt that they wanted less granular, more relevant difficulties, given the generally poor state of Blizzard’s testing right now, it’s very possible that they just tuned this jump incorrectly due to lack of playtesting.
For context, I did a single m0 world tour on season 4 launch, and I think current m0s are still extremely trivial, this change only had a positive effect on me, giving compelling gear for a fresh capped character, but I saw a lot of people dying along the way, a lot of bosses 2-4 manned, and I could see someone with more of a life and less experience playing wow struggling hard with these dungeons.
Skill is subjective, I personally did not experience a brick wall.
That 85% numerical scaling is not subjective, there are people who will struggle with that.
So what should be done about it? Should anything be done at all? Is mythic content intended for everyone or should there be a skill floor required for entry?
Personally I believe mythic content should be challenging, that itself is totally ok. The problem arises when it’s the only content that isn’t essentially an unfailable scenic/tutorial difficulty.
Normal and heroic dungeons are easier even than LFR, which is a difficulty where half your group could afk and you still have a chance. These difficulties teach nothing, and the next step has the potential to kill people who make mistakes instantly even in appropriate gear. I made a post earlier in this thread stating that I think m0 seems like a good difficulty to learn mechanics and I stick by that, but the process that wow uses to teach is unforgiving and not suitable for everyone.
I think the main problem is the jump from requiring players to know “nothing”, to requiring the players to know “something”, with an unforgiving community who WILL be rude and mad if you hold them back or waste their time, and no mechanism to teach other than external resources. I think queueable m0s sound great for the majority of players, but there should be a requirement for entry that’s more than just item level. Maybe something like a single player scenario or even something as trivial as a “ready for raiding” style achievement requirement. I started playing the game in WoD, where you were required to do the silver proving grounds just to be able to queue for heroics. I don’t know if that’s exactly the best system, but that was my first introduction to the idea that the game is more than just following the tank and pushing whatever button I felt like.
Sorry for the huge wall of text.
TLDR: lots of people here are saying “get good” and maybe they’re right, but the fact that someone can play this game for 100+ hours and not get better is an atrocious problem, and a common enough issue that it’s at least a little bit Blizzard’s fault - I’d like to hear suggestions on what could be done to fix it.
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This advice is kind of tired and cliche but for real, run your own key.
I just started a new character this week at 421 ilevel with no tier. I bought some greens off the AH, did LFR and the weekly last hurrah quest, then went into m+ with my own key. At the start of the new reset I’m now 498 from m+ gear and have officially replaced my last AH green with an Amirdrasil LFR piece.
At 488 you are absolutely geared enough to go into m+, people will gatekeep you out of their keys because better options exist but nobody can gatekeep you from your own key.
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Maybe, but honestly I cannot fathom how the idea that cutting the bottom 10 key levels while tripling the entry level mythic would require any play testing to determine this would be a disaster for players near the bottom rung of the ladder. It’s so obvious I feel like I’m insulting everyone’s intelligence repeating it. I really can’t overstate how much this change crippled the ability for players to have an environment to improve if their level is below what is now a M+2.
M0 probably needs to be brought closer to heroic for starters; 85% scaling, new mechanics, and carrying a week loot lockout all make it perform poorly as a place to learn. Beyond that, I do think the floor shouldn’t have changed. I’m okay with them compressing the levels from the floor to a previous +10, but there needs to be a place players can get reps in the same rule set and reasonable scaling if we actually want people to ‘git gud.’
If this were a new game mode, I would be willing to entertain an idea that the floor should be higher than an old +2. But that ship sailed nearly a decade ago when they created that floor and largely didn’t change it in that entire time. It’s okay to put new things out of reach for many players, just look at mythic raid. It’s less okay to move something that was highly accessible out of reach for some of those players.
It’s worse than this, in my opinion though. For anyone except those on completely fresh characters, it is possible to be blissfully unaware of 90% of mechanics in heroic because they are tuned so low players can legitimately not know they exist. I mean most mediocre geared tanks can still solo heroic dungeons even with the increased scaling. But then many of those same mechanics as well as some of the ones added for mythic in M0 become lethal in the same gear that heroic was trivial in. The most teachable scaling goes ignorable > noticable > lethal. Too many mechanics skip this middle step with the current scaling.
Essentially the main issue I take is that we went from an environment with baby steps the entire way to the chain until high keys to the first step becoming nearly a straight vertical climb. I could be talked into there not needing to be so many levels or that the floor should have been raised. But the complete elimination of the bottom still baffles me. M+ went from having possibly the most welcoming structure for players to learn in any video game I’ve seen (though the communication of mechanics was still awful) to one of the worst, still with abysmal communication.
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I mean, people keep complaining that there are too many difficulty options in raid at 4, so they converted the 23 difficulties of dungeons that give rewards down to 13.
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So a big problem that is addressed by this change is that since the average player has to go through each difficulty level sequentially, having a load of trivial difficulties at the bottom makes getting into m+ a boring, unrewarding slog, at least for the majority of players doing it.
For the record, I think this change was super good and made heaps of sense.
But the question arises, how do you design content intended for players who fail current m0s without it getting in the way of the players who don’t?
Let’s be clear though, m0s are still highly accessible, they are, by almost all accounts, extremely trivial content, they require the minimum awareness, knowledge, and skill to succeed.
I think it’s important for Blizz to define who m+ is actually for, If the intent is to funnel every player into m+ no matter what their skill level is, then I agree the gap is too high, but I’d advocate for raising the difficulty of normal and heroic to be an appropriate teaching environment rather than lowering the difficulty of m0.
Otherwise keep normal and heroic as the story mode and have m0 onwards be exclusively for players who want a challenge, if a player can’t do m0s, there’s realistically no need for them to do m0s, the increase in loot is meaningless for all content other than content intended to challenge the player, which they can’t do in the first place.
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What is this 85%? If I walk into a heroic dungeon and then a mythic dungeon, the enemy has 3x the health and hits me for 3x the damage.
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I am not wildly out of touch, they made the gearing curve easier and told you how to move through it. You are lazy and just want to get carried. Start in normal or heroic and gear your way to 476 then step in m0. God some of you people make me want to throw up. M0 isnt hard at all, and if it is then you need to learn how to play your class better…in normal and heroic. Did it with 10 toons myself amd had to suffer the re learning curve after my five year break end of legion.
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You have 8 dungeons with at least 4 bosses in each dungeon. Thats at least 32 chamces at loot going through an m0 world tour weekly. Then you have the bouillons amd weekly quest and the the different world events that drop 480 gear. Its much easier to gear this season than it was in prior seasons. Go out and do some stuff, join a guild and get your easy 480 gear, do some time rifts, dreamsurges, world boss. You wont get gear crying on the forums like children.
They got rid of the content no one played and made it relevant again (Heroics are relevant again as a progression step, Normal → Heroics → M0 → M+, where as in S3 it was Ding 70, hop into M+ (2’s)). As much as I thought I might hate it, I actually like it, and the fact that 2’s are harder now is great, there’s no longer 7-8 M+ levels where you could just ignore mechanics (and thus LEARN nothing), you are forced to learn quickly (and I truly believe this is the true crux of the issue)
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Priest is 500 and I have another 4 at 486-490. I’m doing fine for a guildless pugging casual.
Not sure why the immediate assumption is that people who would want a change are just bumbling around incapable of even discovering heroic dungeons. It’s possible to request a change for the benefit of others even if you won’t personally be affected by it.
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You are if you think heroics can teach mechanics.
I’ve been doing m0s. They’re not that bad but they’re a giant leap from heroics.
It’s just crystal clear you’ve never set foot in a heroic dungeon since cata. Cata was the only time in wow’s history that heroic dungeons were even remotely difficult and they were nerfed into the ground because of the backlash.