That may be true, but the prompt wasn’t “did Blizzard’s changes accomplish the goal.” It was, “why are people supporting gatekeeping.”
I still don’t see how this change provides a progression path for players who didn’t want affixes or a timer, yet that keeps coming up as a motivation for the change.
So if someone enters your mythic dungeon and dies 17 times, you’ll be fine when they tell you “well I only died to the 2/3 of the mechanics that weren’t taught from heroic,” yes?
Me either and it keeps coming up because that was the stated goal in Blizzard’s press release.
LOL
Politely? No thanks. I’m raging and leaving.
You are not understanding the path progression adjustment. The intention is to give casual players more room to just enjoy dungeons like mega-dungeon style without as many or any affix added where the core mechanics are the most important aspect.
Get full geared from LFR and heroic dungeons. Then you can go into mythic zero. It gives you normal raid level gear which can be upgraded to 502 or 506 I believe before you need to run heroic raid or anything over a 0, dungeon 1 through 5.
Then 6 gives you crests on par with mythic raiding while introducing more affix and again at 10 as the pinnacle content.
Mythic 0 is indeed closer to a 10 but it’s doable. Normal raid probably easier to help supplement gear as well.
You just need to learn the mechanics and play better essentially for a zero. Yes, they are not essentially like previous seasons where you can almost solo them if you geared.
And did these changes accomplish that? What is now a heroic was already in the game as M0. What was scaled as M+10 before has now become M0. That is literally the only experience these players could get that did not exist before the change. Players who did not want timers or affixes have the same options to gear up as they had before (relative to the next level) and then one final option with a M0. Once they reach the point that M0 is no longer engaging, their options are take a break for the season or go into keys.
Perhaps this was Blizzard’s intent. But adding a singular new level of difficulty that is the end of the progression is not a new progression path.
This is the part that these comments throw out casually as if they apply to everyone. There are players for which a +10, even when geared from the season, was overly difficult. For those players, they have lost an entire range of keys they could enjoy.
Further, there is no ability for players to gain reps to learn mythic mechanics to progress because nothing exists between heroic and the 85% higher scaled M0. And then once they do reach M0, they have 1 opportunity for loot per dungeon per week. The entire environment that supported players to get better through gradually more threatening dungeons within the same rule set is completely gone. The only form of progression to bridge the gap between heroic and M0 is gear.
And given just how far heroic is from M0 in terms of difficulty, it’s likely that anyone who needs that gear to be able to succeed in M0 will be farming that alternate content well past once it has become trivially easy for them. The expectation now is that their experience along the way doesn’t matter, they should just do any content that gives them better gear as individual skill ups aren’t important enough to have an environment to do so.
I really wish someone could make it make sense. How does moving the entry point for an endgame pillar this far to the right make sense when you also remove all stepping stones with which to foster player improvement? All in the name of adding one more difficulty level for players who don’t want a timer to play, that a good chunk of players will be done with by mid-June if they follow the advice of farming trivial content for gear until their eyes bleed?
“You’re only as strong as your weakest excuse”
I agree M0 shouldn’t have a loot lock out if that is a gearing path… that said…
I keep hearing… “heroics don’t teach me mechanics”… when there are basically 3 mechanics that are universal… interrupts, dispels and not standing in bad.
Don’t do these… you fail. Period. You have no other excuse.
How many deaths does it take a group in an “untimed” dungeon before they figure out… hey maybe we should 1. coordinate kicks or 2. pull smaller. M0 gives you everything you need to be successful other than skill…
Saying you weren’t taught the core dungeon mechanics fails after the first time you run through it. You are choosing to not pay attention, not to communicate and asking others to carry you rather than take the time to figure it out and observe.
“Our group died 17 times…” then you are bad at this level of play… you need to gear… you need to pay attention… it’s not meant as an insult any more than a coach telling you what to work on… you just don’t like the answer.
I’m an older gamer. I’ve gotten old and slow and my twitch reflexes are not as good as they once were… so I pay the F*** attention.
The people failing M0 today were failing M5-10 last season… the didn’t learn the basics then… and it’s following them into this season… they don’t want to gear with what’s available to them because “it’s beneath them” then turn around and prove by their poor performance at M0… (when they can be as cautious as they need to be… take as long as it requires to mark targets, talk, chat… make coordinated pulls) it’s not.
i came back from season 2 a week ago and i tanked m0 on my 420 something bdk just fine. i think i still have some season 2 gear xD
m0 isn’t that hard lol
I don’t really need to hear about the woes of not being able to gear because I had to run 9 mythic plus dungeons, some regular mythic 0, LFR normal and heroic and I got maybe a piece of gloves and pants from the 9 or so dungeons which I already had a slot in with tier. Anything else I got lucky from timewalking and what not.
If you want to say mythic zero is a bit of a kick in the teeth progression wise, then sure. Should they nerf it 10 percent or tune some individual encounters? Maybe.
This is coming from someone who has to pug with some of the worst people at times and having never paid for a run.
I was curious where you were getting all this fervor from and after looking at your profile its obvious you paid for your 10 key lol. You are mad you can’t breeze through the content as easily perhaps. A demon hunter, warrior and resto sham carried you and some undergeared evoker through a 10.
I think blizz just wants people to use the upgrade system more. A lot of people are just saving crest for better loots that they think they can get rather than upgrading what they got to have enough stam to avoid 1 shots without defensives and more dps.
its more that they want smoother progression from the face roll content to actual endgame and they want players(or should) to be confronted by the game that they need to learn how to improve earlier rather then later.
One cannot control their height in order to “go on the ride”. This is not a good analogy for that reason alone. On the contrary, someone can certainly better themselves by getting a better understanding of mechanics and/or gear to help them overcome the obstacles of being able to “go on the ride” which is M+.
Generally speaking a vast majority of people who don’t meet the height requirement will grow with time (age) to meet that entry measurement. This is essentially the same thing as telling people to go back and do the previous difficulty till you have acquired the knowledge.
Just wrong. Your barrier to entry to M+ is not a requirement that you cannot control, such as one’s height. Asking someone to brush up on their skills or get some upgrades is a lot different than telling someone to grow 3 more inches. Come on now…
It’s a metaphor it’s close enough.
It’s a shame that in trying to dig up dirt on my accomplishments you stopped at the current season. Feel free to sift back through my history back to SL S1. I must have a lot of gold to burn for the number of +20 keys going back the seasons. It’s also a shame that this community resorts to assuming anyone who advocates for lower skilled players while only having one or two instances of high end accomplishment has to have purchased their runs. If you’re curious, feel free to peruse the log from that key you referenced (remove the space): warcraftlogs. com/reports/T8NPdMYArJmVQ6fC#fight=last&type=damage-done
You’ll have to forgive me for only getting a 91% parse, it was my first significant key of the season after having been down with the flu for 2 weeks. The reason I don’t have more completed keys on my record this season has nothing to do with my abilities as a player, it’s that my 6 month old daughter brought the flu home from daycare the week S4 launched. I simply didn’t have the energy to play WoW on top of taking care of myself, my wife, and my daughter until this past weekend.
The reason I am pushing so hard on this topic has nothing to do my own abilities. When I run keys myself and/or with friends that are around my level, this change was utterly meaningless. I ran a couple 0s to start the season to see the scaling change, realized they weren’t going to be a challenge, and have run keys since. This will have no impact on my ability to complete content around my level, just the number will be 10 less than it was previous seasons.
The reason I care is because I also play with players who aren’t at that level. I am in a friends and family guild that cares far more about the relationships than in-game accomplishments. We do still get AOTC by the end of the season, and have every season since BFA S3, but we aren’t imposing strict performance guidelines on our raiders. We have a wide array of skill sets, including folks whose M+ abilities place them below M0 even with gear.
For a while there, most weeks a handful of us would set up some time to run keys in the 2 - 8 range depending on how late in the season it was and the affixes. By the time everyone was geared, 8s were the most challenging we could hope to time, most of the time depleting when we’d try it. But timing wasn’t really the goal, we just enjoyed running keys together and if we happened to time it, great. This range does not exist anymore. The gear that dropped is available through other places, but the actual gameplay experience is no more. We can get a similar (but still higher) scaling at M0, but that isn’t a key experience and has a weekly lockout. We actually have to improve 4 key levels to reach the new entry point on keys. This is made even more challenging than it should because there are no stepping stones with the same rule set and smooth, steady scaling increases to get to that point. Our options are run utterly trivial content with heroic which will potentially get us gear or struggle through wipe after wipe after wipe of M0.
If there were a clear beneficiary to these changes, at least then I could wrap my head around the changes. There will frequently be times when a decision has winners and losers, and while I may not be happy about it, at least I could understand the logic. I’m struggling to find winners with this change except for those who only care about getting loot from the easiest content possible and the single new difficulty players that don’t want an affix or timer received. It seems like a lot of collateral to deliver a single enhanced experience for those players that most will be done with by mid-June.
Pug 4 bosses on normal, do superbloom, do investigators under attack, do soup event, do hunts, do the time event from soridormi or the primalist future event, do the weekly quest for reputation with loamm or amirdassil, cause that cache gives you drake, … there is a lot of sources, wyrms and aspects are only m+ or raid
How are you level 80?
There’s always been a “brick wall”… the “brick wall” used to be between Mythic 0 and Mythic+…
Now, the Brick Wall is between Heroic and Mythic 0 (as the difference between Mythic 0 and Mythic +2 is very minor).
The Brick wall is still there, always has been… it’s just been sliden around a bit.
This isn’t true at least not exactly. Before the difference in difficulty between a heroic and a mythic was negligible. If you could complete a heroic there was a very good chance you could complete a mythic. Most people were able to complete a mythic and once they got their key they would simply start running +2 keys. And they just would do whatever their key was or drop it if they hit a wall. A lot fewer people experienced a wall at the +2 from 0 than the number of people who are experiencing a wall now going from heroic to 0.
Those affected either way are probably less than a third of people doing mythics realistically likely much less then that. But when you have fewer numbers… you can have a fractional increase of the whole and it can double or triple the number of something.
If only 3% of players had trouble before and 6% now do. That’s a 100% increase but only 3% more overall.
As a person that generally plays to KSM/Portals, I was expecting that this change would be a nothing-burger for me. However, now that we’re in it, I’m definitely seeing more downside than upside to this change.
I think several people have mentioned that while not hugely important, there did feel like a time/place to run an old +4-7ish. I realize now I used keys in that range to dust off alts I may not have played in a season or two and may not have the rotation/utilities fresh in my mind. Playing low stuff like old heroics, everything dies too fast. And a 10 would have certainly been the top end of what I would have felt comfortable taking a spec for a test drive. So that feels a little odd now.
The other thing I’ve noticed is how M+ rating and the group finder dynamic has changed with this update. It generally wasn’t difficult to hop into a +6 in prior seasons, even with a 0 rating fresh alt. Could easily jump around and scrounge up some rating and a baseline in all the dungeons and make applying to groups at a higher level much easier. But in the new format, it’s basically a bunch of people with 0 rating apping to 12+s. If someone applied to a key of mine in the +'teens in any other season, and they had 0 rating, there’s no way you take that person. But that’s basically the environment we’re in today. Over time that problem goes away as you get that baseline rating established on a char. But as someone who likes to play on a ton of toons, the initial “start from 0 rating” feels way way worse this season.
(Yes I know you can run your own keys, I’m not saying it’s impossible or there’s no solution. I’m just saying it is certainly a new dynamic vs prior seasons, and I have a feeling it’s going to be far less enjoyable to pug a bunch of alts from 0 than it was in prior seasons.)