S4 M0 brick wall intentional?

I have a few thoughts on this.

Probably most importantly is that there seems to be this all or nothing kind of attitude with the change. That the only options were keep status quo or make the change that was made. But there was a middle ground here. I have suggested making new +2 = old +4, new +3 = old +8, new +4 = old +12, then moving from there. I also would’ve been fine with a slight variation like +2, +7, +12, and so on. Or we could just half the number of keys (double the scaling between each level). There were ways to cut down the slog without completely eliminating all low keys.

But even when considering the slog, how bad was it, really? And just to be clear, I am not asking because I never did it, every character I put any time into in the season I go through it myself. The level in which keys are utterly trivial takes like an hour, hour and a half tops to burn through. It’s far less than the slog players who need any amount of help to get to the current level of M0 will face within heroic.

Lastly, I’m not really sure we can truly say the majority of players will avoid a slog with this change. For starters, from one season to the next within an expansion, that slog doesn’t exist for any characters that completed a remotely respectable key near the end of the season. But even beyond that, how many players are good enough to take a fresh character in a season straight into an old +12, save for those being carried? For those that aren’t, they will have to slog through heroic (or other gearing sources) now, which is objectively even easier than when they had to blitz through 2 - 11 keys. It’s certainly true that the players hard stuck below the level of a current M0 is a minority, but I don’t think we can say a majority of players wouldn’t have run any key in that level when preparing a character for the season for gear and/or learning. I really don’t think the slog problem was solved for the majority of players; it was solved for some, but for the majority I’m pretty certain it just shifted to even more trivial content.

For players who have a good handle on their characters in a dungeon environment, sure. But what of the players who don’t? I’m focusing a lot on the players hard stuck today because that is an issue that definitely exists. But honestly I think the bigger problem is 5 years down the road.

Every game, no matter how good, has attrition. The players making up the bulk of key runners will eventually leave those keys for one of any number of reasons, and having a fresh crop of new folks is the way to keep that population up. The idea that any player except for the absolute best of the best can just walk into dungeons and have a great handle on what to do is frankly delusional. And while players might be able to piece those skills together through lower difficulties, guides, videos, training dummies, and the like, all of those things lack the combined usefulness of running a low key that used to exist. It requires players to dedicate time outside of the game mode they’re looking to prepare for, which almost by definition will reduce the pool of players willing to do it.

It’s no secret that WoW is comically bad at teaching new players the game. But the previous M+ system was unquestionably the best effort they have ever had at teaching players an aspect of the game, even if that was by accident. There were still major gaps in communication, but having a low bar to entry and laughably small scaling differences from one key to the next created one of the best environments for learning a game mode that I have ever seen in any video game, not just WoW.

M+10 was not trivial content to most players until they outgeared it. It was never trivial content to players who were content running lower levels even before it. The entire premise that trying to assign a singular skill level to players like this is foolhardy. By the end of the season you might be able to convince me that the majority of M+ players found them easy; but I don’t think the term trivial would apply to most players that weren’t pushing well above +15. And many of the people who were pushing +15s and above likely passed through that +10.

Like I said, that opportunity was during the design or possibly shortly after the release of M+ nearly 8 years ago. For better or worse, Blizzard designed M+ to suit basically everybody, and kept it that way for the better part of a decade. Redefining the target this late after its release, especially given how popular the mode has become in that time, was always going to create a major stir.

I still do not understand who was harmed by the old system outside of gear economy and the slog you mentioned. I could not care less if they restructured the rewards to more equitably give loot around the ease of low keys; I’ve said for years M+ has been too lucrative from a risk vs reward perspective. And I already talked about the slog earlier where I don’t think as many people as you’re portraying are going to be able to avoid it, it’s just shifted where it occurs to even more trivial content.


To try summarize my overall point, what’s most challenging for me to wrap my head around is that I’m still struggling to find who the change really benefits. I work in software development myself; I understand fully that some changes will be made that negatively impact me in some way that I wish wouldn’t be made. But I genuinely try to figure out who the change would benefit and if that’s clear, I can certainly accept that it just wasn’t for me.

But I am truly unsure who this change is targeting based on the lack of a clear beneficiary. The only beneficiary that isn’t a “yeah but…” situation are players who want an easier time getting decent gear - heroic gear is better than it has ever been. But with every other benefit that I can come up with or has been shared doesn’t even appear to be a win for those it supposedly helps.

  • Players who have the skill to take a character straight into new +2s at the start of a season are completely unaffected.
  • The “slog” of low keys for experienced players shifts to heroic (which is even easier) for many even who are pushing higher keys by season’s end.
  • Once passed the key range that was removed, the scaling is the same as previous seasons so keys won’t feel any better to move up for the people who were already at those higher levels to begin with.
  • The low level keys worse players spent significant time on were basically skippable by the better players anyway. Outside of bumping some elbows at the start of a season, the higher level players wouldn’t even even be affected by most players in the low level keys.
  • If the goal was to raise the level of the game in keys, removing all learning opportunities before +12s is potentially the worst possible way to do it. Players who need the help getting to those levels of keys aren’t going to learn much about performing in keys from heroic dungeons that mediocre geared tanks can solo with ease. It’s unrealistic to expect players to stick with tangentially related chores for gear long enough to become useful in keys; they’re more likely to just quit.
  • Even the players who wanted harder dungeon content without a timer gained very little. Does one dungeon that carries a scaling level that already existed in the game that you yourself are telling me is a low bar to clear really justify all the negatives with the change? So now we encourage both those players and the lesser skilled players who want to get into keys to quit after a month or two of a season…
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The 85% number is taking the former scaling of a +10 compared to a M0. Admittedly I did not test this myself, I took Blizzard at their word that they have made a heroic scale at the same level M0 used to and M0 scale at the same level M+10 used to. If they didn’t actually use the 85%, then it would be whatever that number is.

With that said, if the difference is truly 3x, that would be 200% scaling, nearly 2 and a half times greater than what I thought it was. So if you are correct, to use the analogy of walls, heroic > M0 is now a 14 foot thick lead wall, not a brick wall.

Early on in Burning Crusade heroics weren’t trivial either.

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Fair point.

The problem with this sentiment is two fold.

First, it assumes that nobody ever learned from those 7-8 key levels that you were skipping over. Maybe you could always ignore those mechanics. Maybe even the average M+ player could ignore those mechanics. But not everyone could.

Second, and more importantly, this change removes the learning environment for performing a key below the previous +12 level. Regardless whether you think players should be willing to spend time in tangentially related activities to gear and learn their characters, the point is that needing to combine all those skills together is vital to success. Driving tests happen on real roads with real traffic, real pedestrians, and real conditions for a reason. Each of the skills you need to learn to drive a car could be tested independently and probably more accurately; but the ability to actually drive requires you to be able to combine all those things together which is a skill unto itself. This new environment with keys expects players to be able to read a dungeon journal and magically know how to execute the strategy their team will adopt to overcome the mechanic, without even seeing how the room looks and how the fight progresses.

*laughs in Prot Paladin*

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I skipped m0 on a new 70 that had gear primarily from legion. His neck after the squishes was a green ilvl 1 eith 0 stats. He hit 70 this weekend and is now doing raids and mplus. Gearing is easy. Its not gas lighting. I ran and got all gear solo.

First, it’s funny that you think people were learning in those keys. If you ran anything in the 10 -16 range in prior seasons (things didn’t start to get better until about 17-18) you would have seen that it’s abundantly clear that the majority of players weren’t learning anything in the lower keys (or at least not being punished enough to learn).

Second, you now have heroics (for gearing up along with the weeklies to get you to at least 480+), and M0 (with no timer, only thing missing is the affixes) is your place to do the learning that you “supposedly” did in the 2-9 range in prior seasons (I still don’t believe this). And as others have found out (like the OP), it’s not a walk in the park, you want that, go do heroics.

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Correction, the new environment with keys expects players to be able to understand basic mechanics for dungeons that are nearly 2 years old at this point. This is not a new difficulty system with a new dungeon set unfamiliar by most of the player base.

The issue (aside from physical limitations) are one of two things, or both; gear (including enchants, gems, upgrades with crests, etc.) or people needing more time to learn the mechanics of bosses and/or specific trash. Those are the only two non-physical limitations that stand between those struggling to get into +2 and not. There are plenty of ways to get an ilvl high enough to enter +2. Learning mechanics may take some repetition, yes, even if it means you need to run m0 with loot lockout. The goal is to learn and be comfortable enough to advance to the higher difficulty and succeed. There are no timers and a group of adventurers can take all the time they need to figure out how to overcome the hurdles they face.

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The people for whom +10 was always hard if not out of reach yet they could run keys below that, yes they did. Also, you make it seem that just because someone in a higher key didn’t execute on something that means every player below that point must have learned nothing. Did you ever have players that executed mechanics flawlessly in that 10 - 16 range? Is it possible they learned something from working their way up from lower keys?

Which do not have all the mechanics.

Which is not farmable, at least not if you want any chance at rewards for your time. It’s one shot and done for the week.

Before this season, they had 10 ranges of keys from 2 to 11 they could play. They could get whatever level of challenge suited them, for whatever reason. Now their choices are former M0 and former M+10, before keys. To a player who was content to run 7s at the end of each season, they have lost a way to play the game. They either ‘git gud’ or get out.

The new environment that without feedback, presumably will follow us into the next expansion where none of us has that deep dungeon knowledge. The new environment that will likely have returning players who are excited for TWW that may not have played Dragonflight at all. The new environment that only shows you all mechanics once you’ve reached a former +10, which was a level some players never reached even with upgraded heroic raid level gear.

You can throw various ‘git gud’ type statements at me all you want, that does not change the fact that the previous key system was nearly a perfect way to give players who need to learn or gear or both a place to do so. The communication from Blizzard was still lacking, but a player didn’t have to go out of their way to check off different boxes. If their current combination of skill and gear was a +4 and they wanted to run a key for enjoyment and improvement, there was a level for that; today there is not.

And for the people with physical limitations that have enjoyed playing keys below a +2, I guess it just sucks to be them? It would be one thing if this were a new game mode that launched this way with some people clearly not cut out for it without major improvement. But that’s not what happened, a game mode that was accessible for nearly everyone who reached endgame has been moved out of reach for anyone at the low end of the curve. Yes there are alternatives to fill the gearing path. There are alternatives to learn different parts of what you need for M+ success, but nowhere to put it all together until a +2.

I’m sorry, but this is just wholly unrealistic for most players who would need this. RPGs are fundamentally about character progression. For most players who are wanting to get into M+, telling them they are expected to spend some portion of time running content their character will get nothing out of today for the potential of getting more progress tomorrow is more likely to make them quit than actually learn. Especially since a good portion of those players probably already spent hours farming gear from content beyond when that content was engaging to reach a level that M0 won’t smash their face in.

If the intent is to weed out anyone who isn’t willing to put in this level of effort to reach M+, then so be it. But if the intent is to actually raise the average level of play in M+, this approach is far worse than what previously existed.

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They totally ruined a good thing, this week I hope proves how bad it has gotten, there is no way I am going to be able to do 4 m0s nevermind +s this week for the weekly. Blizzard ruined a good thing with mythics. Real shame too.

No they could queue up for keys in 2-5 range and get carried by a bunch of higher geared folks who were down there farming quick currency (which was the exact problem). This has been eliminated. It’s a good thing in my mind.

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To my understanding they added additional scaling to replace the missing affixes.

I’ve already done my 4 mythics weekly on 3 70’s (doing M0’s). You don’t have to keep playing the same character and forgo loot.

They did, in some ways M0 feels harder than a 2 (though I account a lot of that to the players).

Hi, welcome to the conversation. Pretty much exactly what these threads are about. OP wants to hit 70 amd jump i to the new m0(+10 equivalent in prior seasons). The new gearing curve is the old way. Gear through heroics to get to m0 from there you do your 2s after and push as high as you can handle. Do world events and weekly quests for 480 gear. Everyone wants instant gratification without putting in the work.

Its undergeared players trying to do content they arent ready for. All it is, the geared players arent doing 0s except on alts.

Considering you haven’t read any of it and just started replying with information that you would know is useless had you done so, thank you for welcoming me to the conversation that you’ve barely been a part of and clearly aren’t aware of any relevant context.

They could, but not everybody did. I am in a guild with a lot of folks who enjoyed keys with guildies and whose skill level even in end-of-season gear was below an 8. They were never going to be carried in a PUG because they didn’t even attempt to PUG. The fun that we could have together is gone; heroic is trivial once we have upgraded heroic raid gear and M0 is over several of their heads.

If the problem is currency farming, then that could have been changed. I’ve long held that M+ is too lucrative for gear and currency farming is a mess. I am not defending that at all, and this should have been fixed. But quite frankly, that isn’t even solved with the change; sure the completely clueless people who have no idea but can get the gear/score for a 2-5 will be fewer, but you’ll still have uber powered players sitting in now low keys for currency.

If that’s the case and they are at 200% scaling between heroic and M0, then that is even worse than I thought.

Got it. So the easy solution for a player wanting to make progress on one character it to play other characters…

I want to play a game mode my wife and I have played for the past 5 years together at a level she does not feel like a liability to the group. Every season before this one, that level was in the neighborhood of a +6 even once geared in the best gear she can get. The reason we capped out around a +6 is because of physical limitations; she’s even playing a class she would prefer not to because it has fewer keybinds than the class she would like to play.

I’m certain players like my wife are the minority. But it still sucks that we can no longer play the game together all because players like yourself think players should be willing to put work into a video game just to access a game mode they’ve been able to access for the better part of the last decade.

This has to be a typo, you’re capable of completing HEROIC raids, but not a current M0?