WHY make it harder though? Why change it now after several years of having that curve how it was? You don’t take things away, people HATE nerfs. It’s bad PR. It would be one thing if it never existed and in that case I think a lot of people would accept your logic but, you don’t just go in and take out half the difficulty steps and come back an say welp here it is live with it. We raised the bar. If you don’t like it, the exit is that way.
That’s the part I think people are rallying against.
Why? To make dungeons matter again.
Before S4, I can’t remember the last time I ever bothered with a heroic dungeon, the closest was Timewalking.
Now?
My new 70s are actually going using heroic dungeons to GEAR UP.
Precisely, moreover the vast majority of players skipped key level 2-10 in S3 because 11s began rewarding wyrm crests and champ track gear.
Personally last season the lowest key I ever stepped foot even, even from the beginning of the season, was an 18.
All other difficulties below that may as well have just not existed.
I don’t see the spirit of the system at all as being a race to find the point of failure for an individual.
It not a “race,” unless it is a race against your own time limitations on what you can stand. Everyone has a different value on time. Blizzard just allowed everyone to get to their Point-of-Failure faster. This includes those who only hang out in S3 2 - 10.
I need to remind you I was one of those people. My raider IO for S3 is 510. I never made it past that score. I benefited from the S3 2- 10 dungeons in some way.
You can skip difficulties, you can push yourself harder but, expecting every player to push themselves to the same just isn’t consistent with what Blizzard has done over the last 20 years.
State where I said that, please. I want you to state were I said expecting every player to push themselves to the same literally or inferred. All I said is that everyone has a Point of Failure and the shifting of difficulty brackets change it.
As for the 20 years: we also had to farm rep for hours, group up to get super rare drops for quests, and grind dungeons, all just to have the privilege of doing raids. Not even whole raid, just SOME of a raid. Blizzard has streamlined everything so that everyone can access endgame quicker. I prefer these streamlined changes that help with my time versus the last 20 years*.
The keyword here is access. Not completion of endgame content.
This change would be like taking out normal raids and leaving LFR (heroic dungeons) and asking players to jump straight into Heroic raids (M0).
Literally not even close to comparisons. Raiding tiers are not the same as the Mythic System. You still have granular increments with the Mythic systems. The numbers have been shifted. Nothing has been removed. This is a dishonest comparison.
So - pretend they didn’t exist. For you that works. But I’m sure there are people similar to you that wouldn’t set foot in 18s… Should we get rid of those difficulties you use too because to the others better than you it’s irrelevant?
The argument I’m hearing is because some people who are MDI skill level feel these dungeons are too easy for them. That they must be too easy. And no one should have them to do and everyone should have to do the harder dungeons instead but if they can’t “get gud”.
Your own arguments said you wasted time reaching your point of failure. It wasn’t wasted time unless your racing to find that point of failure.
It’s implied when your arguing that removing the steps from 0-9 out are a good thing that improves the experience. Your whole argument was people find their pof faster.
Your aware that they removed the old +2 through +9 right? Like those don’t exist anymore? They moved the old +10 and make it a 0. They made the old 0 heroic.
So they got rid of Heroic…and they got rid of everything between Mythic and M10 previously.
So they removed the granular increments from the mythic system that represented growth between the old 0 (now heroic) and the 10 (now 0).
So there’s a missing 10 granular growth in between.
It’s exactly like taking out the normal raid teir in terms of the difficulty jump in mechanics and requirements between doing an LFR then doing a Heroic raid…
Again the only benefit here is to people who didn’t need those steps. Awesome your great your the best video gamer in the world. Pat you on the back. Give you your blue ribbon. Paint your name in the stars. May the gods yell your name from the heavens and proclaim your greatness.
Now, let’s talk about the rest of the population that did and do need them.
These difficulties weren’t removed for a random reason. They were removed because data likely showed that most players BEGAN their mythic + journey at +11/12. Which is what the new systems starts at difficulty wise.
From Blizzard’s own press release…
- Recalibrate core difficulties to align with seasonal player experience and progression.
- Serve the community who enjoys dungeon content but feels that Mythic+ content isn’t for them due to the pressures of taking part.
- Create a better environment in Mythic dungeons to prepare more players to take part in Mythic+.
This isn’t even close to the truth and if it is then they explained why they were doing it incorrectly and failed communicating the actual goals.
#2 specifically - making everything harder in M+ does not in anyway remove the pressures of taking part, it does infact increase them. Being forced to gear in heroic to run mythic + doesn’t prepare you for mythic+ when the mechanics are different and its overly easy and people zerg it. No instead your unprepared for the difficulty jump which is what we are hearing.
#3 - same as #2 it’s not preparing people for m+ or we wouldn’t see people complaining.
We are yet…to see if #1 is met because we aren’t far enough along in the season to see how it pans out at the end of the season.
I ronically reading further…
- Mythic difficulty changes and mechanics will not be present in this difficulty.
Directly conflicts with goal #3. Not sure if their talking about the features like time and count but the mechanics of mythic still aren’t in heroics either. By that i mean for example the second boss in ruby doesn’t leave ground patches. Final boss in academy doesn’t do orbs. Etc.
- The goal is to create a mega-dungeon like difficulty for this experience. This difficulty should present a meaningful challenge and provide commensurate rewards without the pressures of the current Mythic+ system.
This makes more sense with the jump but the players don’t see M0 as the pinnacle of challenge for themselves, they see it as the entry point to Mythic+. Which is also how everyone arguing for this change is pitching it.
Heroic isn’t designed to prepare you for M+, it’s designed to gear you up to take on M0 which is what is supposed to help you prepare for M+. At the M0 difficulty stuff kills you. It is supposed to punish you for doing the mechanic incorrectly, because it exists to teach you to be aware that it is happening. If you’re coming out of that experience and just being upset that things are hard, not taking away some lessons on what mechanics matter, than you failing on your journey to being a better player who can venture into the M+ system, and are exactly the kind of player that the new M0 difficulty is designed to filter out.
Blizzard has decided they want to change this perception. It’s on the players for not understanding that.
Nobody was asking you to; the previous system already took care of this by ensuring that players such as yourself would quickly wind up in content above what the players who weren’t getting better would see. Many of us are still trying to figure out how this environment where players like you are more likely to encounter ill-prepared people in a +2 because that’s still the first key level available is better than what we had before DF S4, especially when it doesn’t seem like players who wanted a season-long progression path with untimed dungeon content got that either…
First off, I do genuinely thank you for giving me a response. As I alluded to in my post, everyone else that had responded when I asked this question either deflected or just told me to ‘git gud.’ I do genuinely appreciate you taking the time to give me a detailed response.
Also, I did read your entire post, but just quoting this line to make my reply take up less room.
For players who are looking to test their limits and then largely call it a day, I can completely understand how this new system is better. Yes, it will take less time to arrive at the point where you’re over your head. While this is largely what I have done with my own progression in a season when pushing score as high as I could, I didn’t really think of it this way. But it makes perfect seonse.
But this is where I have to disagree. Mythic dungeons serve many different populations. I really don’t agree that there is only one spirit of mythic dungeons, and that is to fine your breaking point. When I would push into the higher keys, that was certainly what I was doing. But when I would play keys with my wife, that wasn’t the point at all. It was truly being able to run small group content at a level commiserate with the group solely for the enjoyment of that run. Having no lockouts means we could run as many keys as time would allow, and we had fun doing so.
By removing the 2 - 11 key range, and with the skill level of both my wife and the other guildies I would run with falling squarely within that range, we have lost this ability to do so. A gameplay option was completely removed. And frankly, the group Blizzard claimed to want to be catering to with regard to untimed dungeons was barely served, if at all. While I would still be disappointed with this change, I would at least be able to wrap my head around a clear group that benefitted if there was a clear path for players who wanted untimed challenging dungeons to progress throughout the season. But those players will face the same steep learning curve to make it to the single untimed dungeon, and then being only a single dungeon level it’s unlikely to last more than a few weeks.
Do you honestly feel mechanics matter and your skills and knowledge are tested in heroic, though? Mediocre geared tanks can still solo them without stopping between bosses. Squishy DPS can still survive entire fights standing in ground effects that will kill them inside of a couple seconds in the next difficulty up. So even while I can appreciate players being able to find their point of failure faster, is it really better for anyone whose point of failure was within the former 2 - 11 range to go from “I can’t die even if I try” to “well I guess my pinky toe was in that swirly, I’m clearly not cut out to this?”
I’m not sad to see there being a squish in low end keys, I’m sad that the entire low end was completely removed. It wouldn’t take weeks to find your failure point if there were 2 levels below what is currently a +2, but more players would find a sweet spot where they feel challenged but not frustrated by the difficulty. And more importantly, there would be a stepping stone between what is currently heroic > M0, which feels more like a stepping mountain.
Speak for yourself. I very much enjoyed playing with my wife in keys within the range that was deleted. She may “belong” in heroic now, but that wasn’t a true statement for the better part of a decade before this season.
But did this change in heroic require removing all stepping stones from what was M0 to M+10 to accomplish? In the several thousands of posts across multiple threads I’ve seen on this topic, I cannot recall seeing a single person complain about the heroic difficulty being raised along with relevant gear. It’s that heroic > M0 is a massive jump for two adjacent difficulties and the fact that the entire low end of keys where players could actually gain reps to improve to make that jump were wiped out.
But who would be hurt by keeping those keys in the game for those that wanted it? I don’t dispute that more people started above the M+10 range, but for anyone who were in that range, they just lose a way to engage with the game. Some might find a new range to play with this new system, but anyone who doesn’t (for any reason) is just SOL.
If this was the thought process as Blizzard, this is a pretty big failure on the concept of human learning. Most people need repetition to learn new things. Relying on a game mode that locks loot to once per week to be that environment for learning is misguided to say the least.
Your own arguments said you wasted time reaching your point of failure. It wasn’t wasted time unless your racing to find that point of failure.
Incorrect. I was seeking my PoF. You would have picked that inferring up from my thoughts I posted within the same comment. I ended up becoming curious about the length of time it would take.
I even stated I did not run up the ladder. I also written out how I did my dungeons. My RaiderIO history reflects that. Really easy to look up.
I don’t know how you got racing out of any of that.
It’s implied when your arguing that removing the steps from 0-9 out are a good thing that improves the experience. Your whole argument was people find their pof faster.
I stated that shifting the difficulties allowed people to get to their PoF faster. Which is what the “non-Git gud deflection” type answer the person I was responding to was seeking.
I did not state it improved experiences. I stated it streamlined the time for someone to get to their PoF. Those two points are not necessarily joined together.
Your aware that they removed the old +2 through +9 right? Like those don’t exist anymore? They moved the old +10 and make it a 0. They made the old 0 heroic.
So they got rid of Heroic…and they got rid of everything between Mythic and M10 previously.
So they removed the granular increments from the mythic system that represented growth between the old 0 (now heroic) and the 10 (now 0).
Yes, I stated this in my initial response:
As of right now, Heroics are as hard as S3 M0.
Yes, you and those players who enjoyed being below 10s, which included me at the time, lost that generous scaling. It is all now clumped into M0. That is a tradeoff to ensure the spirit of the Mythic Dungeon system is kept.
If your insight is as good as you believe it is, you could have inferred that I know about these changes.
It’s exactly like taking out the normal raid teir in terms of the difficulty jump in mechanics and requirements between doing an LFR then doing a Heroic raid…
Still not a good comparison. We’re talking about two different systems between Raids and Dungeons. Look, I get what you are trying to do, but it still doesn’t fit.
Again the only benefit here is to people who didn’t need those steps. Awesome your great your the best video gamer in the world. Pat you on the back. Give you your blue ribbon. Paint your name in the stars. May the gods yell your name from the heavens and proclaim your greatness.
The thing is, I personally don’t know if I don’t need those steps. I never hit my PoF. I have to set a new baseline with the S4 Mythic Dungeon system.
I don’t have a choice. The are not going to bring back the S3 system for S4. It’s gone. I am not going to dwell on it or get angry about it.
Now, let’s talk about the rest of the population that did and do need them.
You are free to talk about those people. No one is trying to stop you that I am seeing. They are just disagreeing with you. Which is cool. You are disagreeing with me, which is also cool.
I just hope you have enough respect for opinions differ than your own.
exactly the kind of player that the new M0 difficulty is designed to filter out.
And there you have it - the gatekeeping truly is laid bare.
This change for it’s supporters is all about discriminating against other players they consider themselves to be superior to. It’s not good enough that the inferior players are doing lower keys, they need to be completely filtered out of the format.
I guess you caught me. I don’t think players who have little to no interest in self improvement should have a place in a mode entirely about pushing to harder and harder difficulties.
No. It’s about ensuring that gameplay modes attract the players that are actually interested in the gameplay mode. I don’t want to wind up in a group with a person who has no interest in bettering themselves or their performance, which is in essence what M+ exists to do.
Way too many players got comfortable being put in a backpack and carried through keys. I’m glad that this difficulty change is weeding those people out.
This. Im all for players experimenting and finding game modes/difficulties they enjoy. But i push past reward levels for the sake of rating. Someone who doesnt want to use defensives or interrupts or contribute to a groups success or move away from swirlies and dying constantly is not someone i want with me
And you know what that’s fantastic and I can only speak for myself but I applaud you. That’s what the mode is for. You have pushed beyond what is rewarded into the realm of harder and harder to reach whatever your limit is. Once you get into the system that is the absolute spirit of what M+ is about!
Now why can’t the players on the bottom end have the ramp that allows them to achieve the same ends based on their own challenges and ceiling? That’s what we’re all talking about here.
The “Filter” the other poster talks about should be the ever increasing difficulty once you are actually participating in the mode. It should not be an artificial and arbitrary ‘you must be this high’ to ride sign at the front of the line to enter.
Everyone is welcome…step right up…take a swing…see how high you can drive the weight up the scale.
Thank you for your response and perspective.
A gameplay option was completely removed. And frankly, the group Blizzard claimed to want to be catering to with regard to untimed dungeons was barely served, if at all.
We honestly don’t know who asked for this specifically. How they handled this may have not been the best, and it could have been an executive’s decision in the company to do this. We all know most company executives and directors don’t play the game or consume what the company makes.
If anything, they should have made tiers of Heroic Dungeons instead, that contained the S3 M+2 - 11 ranges. You could have H+2, H+3, etc. That would have satisfied the request.
Do you honestly feel mechanics matter and your skills and knowledge are tested in heroic, though? Mediocre geared tanks can still solo them without stopping between bosses. Squishy DPS can still survive entire fights standing in ground effects that will kill them inside of a couple seconds in the next difficulty up.
Counts on the group. RNGesus is a fickle god. I had groups where the tank was a fresh 70 and couldn’t tank a single pack. I have groups where the DPS didn’t kick nor followed mechanics… in one group, we wiped three times to the last boss in FALL because the DPS and the tank didn’t know the mechanics.
I also have groups where Holy Nova was 70% of my casts I spent almost the whole time dealing damage.
It’s random. I will say that, barring one FALL run, 1/7 runs only had one death.
It’s still slightly more stressful than M+2 last season. Only because Heroics sit in the Dungeon Finder and your affix is your party.
But everyone is welcome. M0 is the onboarding, keys only get harder from M0 so if a player can’t even complete an M0 dungeon that is their cue to reassess their own player skill, or their interest in the system.
The ‘you must be this tall to ride’ sign at the front of the line… it moved from 4’ to 6’ overnight with no rational reason at all. No not everyone is welcome. They used to be, now they aren’t. The term “moving goalpost” comes to mind.
The only barrier to entry of a M0 dungeon is your level. Quite literally everyone can enter one and try it so long as they are max level.
You can white knight all you want. I have no problem grouping with inexperienced players and teaching them in a m0.
The person i was replying to blatantly spoke for people that think being a boat anchor on purpose in a group should be ok. As if others owe them carries in pick up groups. Let’s be honest there were a lot of people in season 3 running 18s and 20s and didn’t know the mechanics ruining keys. That’s the real attitude that doesn’t belong in wow.
They can get all of the same gear upgrades in heroic now: lets be honest a heroic and a +2 in season 3 was a pretty small gap to overcome. They weren’t all that different in difficulty. Now they can grind to their heart’s content for the same level of gear in heroic and not even have to wait to be accepted to a group.