I would say that you get 460ilvl from normal dungeons, with 460 ilvl you outgear the heroics imo.
you’re supposed to learn how to do m0 and m+ by DOING m0 and m+
You’re not supposed to learn the fights by doing heroics.
You’re supposed to wipe, groups will quit, people will ragequit/leave, get disappointed — you’re supposed to feel the progression and reward of beating a boss, even just a single boss can take multiple encounters in particular if people have never played against those bosses in m0 / m+ before.
Otherwise though, I agree with pretty much everything you’re saying Cexo
No, that’s not what I think. But it seems like you are labelling me as someone who things that way.
I think m+ is as the name implies, MYTHIC PLUS. I.e should be the hardest content in the game.
Every key level should require progression/learning especially in pugs. You should not time the majority of your keys until your whole group has ilvl gear from that same key level.
LFR is similar to Heroic dungeons or M0 dungeons. Especially since every wipe makes your raid stronger and stronger (stacking buff)
Also to add — m0 counts for the Great Vault too.
I hope the solo/follower dungeon is upgraded to Heroics eventually. I also wish the followers would DISPEL ME and PURGE enemies. (Teaches people what to dispel and purge)
For the people that were unaware of using interrupts, cc’s and mechanics or how to play your class, just think of this as 5 man raid progression. In the long run you’ll be a better player.
Agreed, exactly how it should be. 100% agree. It should feel like progression and personally, I think many people should just be happy to complete an m+ even without timing it. Get that gear, rinse repeat. When you have gear from +2 on all item slots and so does your team, then you can expect to time it more consistently. This assumes a below-average/casual player overall.
You claimed it’s a choice to limit yourself in M+. While for some that is true, it’s not for everybody. But everyone who isn’t at a level where they can perform at a minimum level for the lowest level of keys is now unable to perform them except in groups where they are carried, regardless of the reason why they can’t perform.
At no point did I even remotely come close to saying M+ was as hard as mythic raid. I said the entry point into mythic raid has always been high, while up until DF S4, the entry point to M+ was low. Trying to pretend like M+ didn’t go from highly accessible to less accessible while mythic raid was already pretty inaccessible (if for no other reason than the roster boss) is ridiculous.
For most bosses, sure. But this idea that every LFR boss can be fully brute forced with complete disregard for mechanics has rarely (if ever) been a true statement. It’s just in any normal distribution of players in an LFR, there are likely to be enough players that have committed raid mechanics to memory in other difficulties or are good enough to figure them out on the fly that they wind up fulfilling the mechanics in LFR as well to allow the raid to succeed.
Except for the “filthy casual” who was content to run low level keys and prefer the M+ experience. I know it may be hard to believe, but many players actually care about how much they enjoy the things they do in game and not focus solely on what is the prize at the end of the tunnel. Blizzard could put max level legendaries for my spec for fishing, archaeology, and pet battles, and if I had to spent more than like 10 minutes I wouldn’t bother doing it.
Before DF S4, players of nearly all levels could find an appropriately tuned M+ for them to play, where they would get experience, knowledge, and gear. The existence of alternate content that provides one or both of these things absent the rest is not a suitable replacement. Games are supposed to be fun…
If they had just taken out the timer and count for M+ 2 through 9 and left them in, then that would of been them:
So the timer was removed for that difficulty level.
This is the classic case of Blizzard doing something that they think is appeasing the request but not hearing the request and doing what is being asked for. People were fine with the difficulty scaling the way it was they just wanted a version that didn’t have the affixes nor the timer.
I mean even ignoring the obvious fact that some people complaining in a group doesn’t mean everyone in the group shared that sentiment, it wasn’t just a removal of the timer here. It was a complete removal of 9 levels of keys at the bottom where players are most likely going to have a wide array of experience and knowledge within a key environment. There’s nothing wrong with having up to a previous +10 being possible without a timer, but even the players that didn’t want a timer are going from heroic where a mediocre geared tank can solo to a level that some players who preferred keys as their endgame never reached.
I haven’t seen anyone even attempt to answer why we needed to remove keys 2 - 11 (and shift 10 to untimed) in order to provide a single non-faceroll untimed difficulty at a previous +10 scaling. Every time I ask, someone deflects to how it’s good players can farm heroic to get better gear. There is zero acknowledgment of the players that used to enjoy running content from 2 - 9 for which that difficulty is gone (timer or not), aside from the obligatory ‘git gud’.
In Season 3 you could farm +2 dungeons all week without hitting a lockout. The +2 dungeon was only marginally harder than a heroic is in S4 and CONSIDERABLY easier than a 0 is now in S4 (as the 0 is now the same or relatively close to an M10 last season).
As if that wasn’t enough…
You can only run 0s (remember same as last seasons +10) now once a week each. You can’t focus target heroics either as they have a lock out as well. You can only hope to random into the ones you know or want to run.
Having the +2 being a key and being quantifiably easier meant that you could run any dungeon you wanted as much as you wanted as long as you could find a key. This means its easier to learn the dungeon from repetition and its also easier to focus on getting BIS drops from the dungeons where they drop.
This season if you hit that wall - your stuck running random heroics bouncing around with no control over which dungeon your going to run, no control over the group composition, no control over who you are gong to get in your groups.
Heroic bosses don’t have the same mechanics as mythic bosses - so any knowledge of mechanics isnt entirely applicable.
And you can’t specifically focus the heroic dungeon you need gear out of. You could randomly run heroics ALL day long and not get the piece you need because it doesn’t come up on the random rotation.
No one is here saying… OMG heroics are too hard nerf heroics. In fact nearly everyone is still saying heroics are too easy.
Some people are suggesting that heroics should be harder…i can go either way…
As I said above… +2 in S3 was not that much harder than a heroic today and it awarded better gear… and people who are being forced to run heroics right now…could of done the +2 just fine. And with Keys you could pick to run the same +2 all day long…and you’d likely get the items you needed in alot less time…and it would of been a higher relative item level to what we get from heroic.
The problem with the argument about heroics is that while you can now “random” what was a M0… the content is still too easy for some and now the M0 is too hard for those same people being 10 levels of difficulty higher. So their stuck just “Grinding” on the heroic which is not fun. Not at all.
I still like the idea of moving the 0 mythic to half the difficulty of the current 0 while also adding a +1 difficulty to replace it. So you have 2 equal steps from H → 0 → +1 and then you get the smooth steps from +2 on up. That would let people who can do the +1 (right now’s +0) run it how they want with keys AND give people a difficulty that is easier if they find 0s too hard but heroics too easy.