So mythic+ is less fun for the people already at the top if the majority of players have interesting content to do and a path to progression. Are you one of those who whined that raiding was more epic in vanilla when players had to belong to the right clique in the right type of guild in order to have access to any group content, and that this should be brought back?
Are you aware that people who have nothing meaningful to do will stop paying the cost of development of your content?
It actually kept people playing the game. I see you’re still here? Why, if you consider it an abomination that casuals had something to do that in no way affected your gameplay?
This is possibly one of the worst arguments ever. Everyone at some point experiences a new mechanic for the first time ever. What is the difference between a player who overcomes and succeeds the encounter versus those who fail at it? Do players who succeed possess some sort of incredible intuition/premonition or are they just simply better players who are more prepared and/or have higher skills?
Like I said before, dungeon journal exists. A plethora of dedicated WoW resources also exists. If you wipe in a raid, or M0, you just ressurect yourself, dust yourself off, and try agian until you get it. If you give up easily and quit, then you don’t deserve the loot. End of discussion.
Hands on experience being good is the worst argument ever?
Journal is useless. I’ve had this discussion before. It’s a glorified reminder of what boss is next and what they drop. Nobody uses that thing to learn mechanics or boss fights. Just as a reminder of what other sources have already detailed thoroughly for them.
Decades of experience, innate talent at this sort of learning, and a collection of friends who are equally committed and available are a big part of it.
My S3 geared evoker was able to do 0’s and some 2’s to start out. The gear I have on her is not great so anyone should be able to do this at like 480 or so.
No I don’t even know what you’re talking about vanilla.
I don’t really care if you think people will stop paying the development. Nor do I care if that happens, there’s plenty of games to play. I play WoW once in a while and climb to the top percentile of M+ until I get bored.
If it’s not around I’ll play other games or play music or do something else entirely.
Oh right, so you’re assuming that the people who quit were elite players? They weren’t. My friends who quit were heroic raiders and they hated that m+ players could outgear them in no time, they didn’t enjoy m+ content. I enjoy m+ content that’s why I kept playing and I haven’t been constantly playing. I come back for a month here and there and then I quit for months and come back on the next season if I feel the urge.
If you can’t do mythic raids with the gear from end of season 3, why should you be able to do mythic+ with the same gear easily?
Sounds to me like people just want free-easy gear.
You get hands on experience by doing the encounter? The expectation of one-shotting everything despite it being on a higher difficulty and then complaining and/or giving up sounds like entitlement to me. Get better.
Kind of hilarious that you dismiss the fact that a tool/resource literally exists in the game to help inform you on mechanics. And then go on to say “nobody uses that thing to learn mechanics or boss fights” which is exactly the problem and my point. Go learn the mechanics or boss fights.
Right. Exactly and it’s your choice to limit yourself if you don’t want to learn how to play m+. Same as mythic raids.
People don’t like that it’s becoming an actual challenge. That’s too bad.
Games in general have been easy for the past 15+ years, it’s about time they’ve become challenging.
Not all content is made for everyone. Same reason why not everyone raids, not everyone m+, not everyone PvP, not everyone does quests or world content.
Calling the journal useless? It’s not useless at all. It’s extremely useful. I’ve never once read it and found it useless. I use it all the time. The thing is many people are casual gamers and aren’t going to read it like you said but that’s their fault for limiting themselves.
You get what you put in. If you’re only going to put a small amount of effort you should not be timing m+ keys. If you don’t know the mechanics to fights then you should not be timing m+ keys. Even a +2 should be a challenge and most players should have a hard time completing them at least for the first month or more until people figure out those mechanics and gear up with “un-timed” +2 keys and such (outgearing)
I’m learning. Have I said anywhere that I didn’t want to or am not going to try?
You’re simply not reading what I’m saying at this point.
Bosses die too quick in heroic to learn anything relevant to 0s from the fights. Therefore you aren’t getting any hands on experience with mythic mechanics by doing heroics. Which is a distinct difference between moving from LFR > Normal and moving from Heroic dungeon > mythic 0.
Hopefully this will clear things up a bit.
I do. From watching videos and reading 3rd party guides. Not from the journal because it’s useless information with little to no context.
A lot of it really is without the context of having seen a video or done the encounter. There is never a time when the journal is my first choice for information unless it’s just as a reminder of things I already know but am not fresh on.
Normal bosses do not have 85% more health and damage than LFR bosses.
LFR cannot be soloed by a single tank in mediocre gear.
Completely ignoring mechanics in LFR can wipe the group. Go see what happens in Aberrus if Rashok reaches full energy in LFR while he has isn’t already basically dead.
The contribution required from each player in every raid difficulty prior to mythic raid to succeed is lower because of there being more players. If you get yourself killed in a normal raid as anything but the tank, very few raid groups would be unable to still kill the boss. There are many damage checks that an appropriately geared group will not meet in mythic dungeons if a single DPS is dead.
And none of them will teach you how to keep the group alive as a disc priest during the intermission on the second boss of Azure Vault, an intermission many players just learning the dungeon will not see until they reach mythic difficulty because so many heroic groups killed him before he reached intermission even once. Not to mention expecting players to do things unrelated to the game mode they want to play in order improve at the game mode they want to play is unlikely to improve participation in that game mode.
They were up until 2 weeks ago. Unlike mythic raids that have always had a pretty sharp barrier to entry.
There were players who couldn’t reach the current level of M0 by the end of a season when gear was no longer a limiting factor before. Cutting out the avenue for learning the M+ game mode is highly unlikely to allow these players to suddenly do so now.
Players whose limits were below an old M+10 have a difficulty where they can play M+ that’s appropriate for their skill level now that M+ starts at +12?
And let me be crystal clear. Different game modes that have health and damage scaling similar to something in M+ does NOT make it M+. Having an alternate place where you can get gear you used to get out of a level of M+ is not a suitable replacement for players that want to play M+.
My wife has put dozens of hours into trying to improve in M+. She even changed class from the one she wanted to play to one with fewer keybinds so she could feel like less of a liability in 4-8 keys from previous seasons. She has physical limitations that create a lower performance ceiling than many other players. This idea that the only people who might struggle to perform in what are now +2s are those who give zero effort is absurd.
The reality is my wife enjoys keys. She enjoys playing keys with her husband and guildies without feeling like a complete carry. Two weeks ago she had a key range where she could do so. Today she does not. And it’s not because she simply wants to show up for free shinies without putting in the work.
the way to get experience in m0 and m+ is to do them over and over again with multiple groups pugs and friends. Read the journal look on youtube for boss guides.
putting in effort and learning the methods leads to rewards.
The reward is completing the key in time, not the loot. The reward is learning to play better and enjoying the ride (progression).
I’m glad you’re learning that sounds good. It is tough sometimes, we’re all having a hard time even top players are having a tough time. By this time many players would reach much higher keys than 13-16 keys. This is a learning experience for everyone.
Casuals to top level players.
I have to heal at a much higher rate/level of play than before even at very low keys.
It’s fun to have to learn your spec. And I played with a group yesterday, we basically played perfectly but we still didn’t time the key (missed it by about 1 minute and 50 seconds) why? Basically our damage was a bit too low, our DPS wasn’t really doing their rotations perfectly and we wiped once. That’s the way it is.
They die too quickly because players outgear the content. What if I told you that the same thing would eventually happen in M0s as well once players outgear it?
There are numerous M+ boss mechanics that were so trivial and didn’t matter until players reached key levels 25+ in previous seasons.
That’s great. And I encourage everyone else who’s struggling to do the same thing as I’ve already mentioned in previous posts. Nitpick the dungeon journal all you want, its still a great in-game resource. The only way Blizz would go beyond what they already include in the encounter journal would be to include videos of how to do the mechanic which would take away the problem-solving aspect of the encounter to begin with, even though that’s exactly that third party guides do already.
It’s absolutely working well. People that ignored mechanics and ruined other ppls keys later are hitting a buzzsaw. Now they’re either gonna learn mechanics and their class or get wrecked.
I think people are approaching this discussion from the perspective that anyone who disagrees or thinks the curve is too much is a filthy casual that wants to destroy M+. That’s not the case.
I think they made the right move overall but from here comes the effort to finesse things to make it as good as possible for everyone.
