I agree, but I’m not talking about M0 as that playground, it’s the +2-+9 key range that doesn’t exist and served that function previously.
Somebody didn’t heal Chromie last night in a heroic DotI. 
We wiped. Got back up and just finished, it’s not a big deal.
There is no brick wall.
You should be able to do m0 with heroic gear. If not that’s a you problem.
The reason why they did this is because key were too inflated, getting to a 20 before you get the max rewards was getting insane.
So they condensed them to a +10.
It’s called mythic, even if a 0, it shouldn’t be a walk in the park.
If a walk in the park is what you’re looking for, stick to normal/heroic.
What are the odds that it just ends up inflated again within an expac or two?
As long as 10 is the new 20, it doesn’t really matter.
Could people do a +20? Yes, who cares.
There were people doing basically +30 before, it doesn’t matter. What matters is that you don’t have to boost your key to a 20 before you get the max rewards.
While I do think the level the settled on for M0 was a bit too high, that’s not even the biggest problem. The biggest problem is the massive jump in difficulty between heroic (that can still be soloed by mediocre geared tanks) and M0. Players learn next to nothing in heroic dungeons because of how nonthreatening mechanics are (even with them having been bumped up in difficulty to the previous M0) and then walk into mythics completely unprepared where not doing mechanics will get them killed.
Then for the players who need gear from heroic to succeed in M0, the expectation is that they will farm an unengaging mode they can literally AFK through until they reach an indeterminate amount of gear to be ready to tackle M0. Which they can only run once per week for reward making it unlikely most players will get the repetition most people need to learn new skills.
My own personal feelings about the level they landed on for the first step into mythics aside, I can certainly understand the calls for heroics and previous M0 to be harder. I can understand calls to increase the scaling between key levels (effectively removing difficulty levels) because it wasn’t until very high keys that you could really feel the difference between key X and key X+1. But you could always feel the difference between key X and key X+9. And that’s now the jump between heroic and the first level of mythic. And that first level of mythic has a weekly loot cap to discourage repeating. This is probably the steepest incline from one difficulty to the next in WoW, and it’s at the entry level of a game mode where players that need the most avenues for learning exist.
I am convinced that the only people struggling with M0 are those who do absolutely no mechanics, play their specs really poorly, and/or have horrible gear. Probably all of the above honestly.
The problem exists between chair and keyboard. The gearing process has had tremendous improvements to the point where you can easily get geared enough to trivialize M0.
Yes, M0 is harder than previous patches. Blizzard intentionally made it this way in an effort to squish the key level inflation that was going on. If you’re struggling with M0, then farm heroics and other sources of gear (which is honestly abundant) and simply just get better. You don’t have to be the best, no where near the best honestly… but if you’re struggling in an M0 while still outgearing it, then you really need to get better. I don’t even want to sound condescending at this point, but like just get better…
Edit:
Simply false. LFR has existed for a long time in this game and its literally just as you described a heroic dungeon to be: extremely easy, very forgiving. The jump from LFR to Normal is similar to the jump from dungeon Heroic to Mythic.
Again, people need to take accountability and become better players. The game provides adequate resources to help players learn the game and encounters via dungeon journals, proving grounds, etc. And there exists an incredible amount of resources online via dedicated websites to the game, class, specs, discords, youtube channels, etc.
The idea that there is this vocal majority of players who are begging Blizz for harder content is hilarious.
Less than 1 % of the total playerbase finishes the mythic raid. This is not the kind of playerbase that wants to be challenged lol.
Idc that someone made a forum post, or that some rando made a r/wow post. Ppl clearly dont want to be challenged, or they wouldnt be playing a computer game.
I mean, you are a WoW player, so you are probably bad at video games urself. Please be humble before making these kind of comments.
We are the joke of eSpOrTs, and for good reason. Bunch of 40 year old bald men competing for a Snickers bar in the MDI. Thats the best WoW can do.
Back in Legion +10 gave the highest M+ ilvl, and could titanforge. Yet during Legion bad players could still spam +2s or 5+s easily for gear.
I dont get why ppl absolutely have to gatekeep content they are not even doing here. Just absolutely pathetic. Who does it hurt that a bunch of noobs can easily run a +2 if they want for infinite gear? Again, if u wanna use the iNfLaTiOn argument, look at Legion. Look at BFA S1.
Tbf though, 2-9 basically were run so little its no wonder they got rid of them
Instead of bounding up the stairs, now we have to walk one step at a time.
Heroic is the old-m0.
Do heroics.
Low keys are not meant for casual-medium hardcore players. They’re for hardcore players now. The way it should have been for a long time,
For too long M+ was used as a way to get strong gear (even stronger than the raids for a long time during ShadowLands).
It’s finally in a good spot.
“Who does it hurt when people do +2 and get gear”?
It hurts everyone who works hard to do mythic raids when the gear you could get from an easy +10 was giving you mythic level gear (this was the case for years iirc, definitely in ShadowLands).
It means you might as well just do one level 10+ or 15+ or whatever it was to get an overpowered piece of gear.
It made it less fun for mythic and even heroic raiders because they’d be better of doing m+ for gear.
It watered-down the point of doing mythic raids.
M+ should be as hard as a mythic raid even at +2.
Totally disagree, especially now. Normal raids are much easier to move up to from LFR than 0s are to move up to from heroic dungeons.
It does not.
This is where you can actually learn something about the game. Unless you have great mentors within the game itself, you need to go outside of it to learn.
As near as I can tell, it’s itentional. It’s 100% about stamina. If you don’t have high enough gear, they don’t want you to be able to do certain things, so you get one-shotted by things, until you get enough stamina. As soon as you get beyond that health threshold, then you can survive the hits.
M+ should be as hard as mythic raids. They’re not made for everyone to play through.
Just like mythic raids are not made for everyone.
The fact that most people were able to do 2+ and above was a joke and one of the reasons many people quit WoW. Became pointless gear-wise to spend time in raids when you could just do easy mythic+ dungeons for more gear at similar or sometimes higher iLVL (great vault for example)
And as far as getting killed easily, you can thank people who decided to run M+ without healers in season 2 of DF as well as the fact that most casual players were completing +2 to +15 keys with relative ease for the past few years.
It’s called Mythic+, this means, like Mythic raids, it should not be easy for most players to complete, especially early in the season.
I think even average players should be able to get up to at least M10 within 3 months.
Absolute delusion.
Have you even SEEN S3 numbers lol? Crazy we genuinely had the final real season have some of the best numbers when the content was free, and ppl here are like ´´Uhm akthually ppl want a challenge´´.
You could give Mythic raid the best gear in the game right now, remove M+ completely, and ppl still wouldnt wanna Mythic raid because it is too hard for the WoW playerbase, who are absolutely terrible at video games.
Its so awesome S4 numbers are gonna be absolutely terrible, and ppl will still be like ´´Uhm according to MY VIBES, and what I WANT, and my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, making the game harder was a HUUGE SUCCESS´´.
Normal raids are much easier to get carried in because there is less individual responsibility/contribution. Its just easier to get carried in a raid, especially if its a large group. Individual responsibility and contribution matter a lot more when the group is smaller, such as in a dungeon setting.
You know what else makes it easier? Having actually seen all of the boss mechanics minus the one new mechanic that moving up to normal sneaks in on you.
Where as moving up to 0s you may have never seen the first mechanic of most bosses because they’ve been falling over like dead trees in the wind.
Either way, all we are doing now is explaining why it’s wrong to say it’s just as easy to move from heroics to 0s.
The fact that most people were able to do +2 and above was a joke and one of the reasons many people quit WoW.
It’s not delusion. Most of my friends quit for this reason. Some came back this season because I told them it’s actually challenging.
Most people should not be able to complete M0 and especially M+ early in the season and many should never be able to complate M0 and M+ just like many never complete mythic raids.
It’s supposed to be hardcore content that was always the point of heroics but then heroics became easy and were replaced with mythics but then those became easy.
And to the person who said “I think average players should be able to reach M10 in a few months”… they can if they put in the effort. M10 is easy, I barely tried and have already done m7 this season and I haven’t been gearing up that much.
If you’re average then you need to gear up fully in M0, then gear up fully in M2, then M3 and so on. You can’t skip key levels if you’re average anymore. You’ll need a full set of gear from each level of M+.
They still do…