Different classes are different but Divine Protection is so weak compared to Faint from Rogues that it’s embarrassing to talent into it. At least from a raiding point of view.
Faint: 15 sec cd
40% aoe dmg reduction for 6 sec
Divine Protection - 2 min cd
20% dmg reduction for 8 sec
Most of the things in raids do AOE dmg to the player.
But we can’t have 1 min cd 20% dmg reduction?
BUT the most important part is that they can talent into Elusiveness which also makes them have their NON-AOE dmg reduction increased by 20%.
So in the end they have 20% vs all and 40% total versus aoe. How cool is that? On a 15 second cooldown too.
Also Rogues get 15% move speed in the first part of their trees.
Paladins get 2% move speed and 2% avoidance in the last part of the tree, against actual DPS talents.
And again… Rogues get acrobatic strikes 3 yards at all times for their melee attacks.
Paladins get 3 yards on some attacks only while under Crusader Aura or during Divine Steed.
I really understand that there are differences between classes and there should be, but of this magnitude?
Could we get the Rogue trees designer get on the Paladin ones?
I mean paladins can heal, BoP, BoS, etc. They can also fulfill every role. Of course you’re going to be envious of other classes if you only see your shortcomings. Rogues being nimble makes sense to me.
What you really should focus on is how rogues bring more group utility than paladins. Nobody brings paladins for their off-healing. Devo aura was pretty much all we had but now rogues have a poison that essentially does the same thing on top of tricks of the trade and shroud.
Really? Rogues utility is more useful than paladins at this point, you’re going to claim BoP and BoS? Those are pretty much irrelevant and you know it. How many fights was BoP useful this expansion in raids? There was Huntsman and… i don’t remember and i’ve done them all. That’s how crap our utility is.
Fulfilling other roles means NOTHING. I want to DPS and i’ll DPS.
Those are SEPARATE MATTERS, where again, the Paladin class loses again. Don’t try to deflect with another issue.
Do you understand that Rogues have more personal Survivability than Paladins do?
The class that’s supposed to be the tanky one?
No you don’t because you’re ignorant.
We can also talk about how Cloak of Shadows is a 2 min CD Divine Shield that lasts 5 seconds.
I’d actually say rogues do more self healing than paladins without a DPS loss. Just by use of feint, slice n dice, and crimson vial they do more healing than us. No trade off for using their self healing either causing reduced dps. Lower cooldowns on their “oh no” buttons, and have talents that lower the CD of their “oh no” abilities. I’d also add they have better consistent DPS as well outside of their CDs, something we also suffer heavily from.
That’s true, when i had rogues in my raiding team, they’d most of the times do more healing than me as well. And that’s without them focusing on healing, i was.
Rogues get all the cool toys, Paladins get scraps from the dollar store.
i was talking about PVE in my post, i don’t care about PVP.
Rogues have immense CC, they don’t need utility when they can prevent the opponent from ever doing dmg.
Your BOP stops just physical dmg from the enemy warrior, while rogues can CC an opponent into oblivion.
It’s ignorant to quote your BoP and BoS like they’re the most amazing tools in the universe, versus Rogues personal survivability which far exceeds that of Paladins.
And you claiming that Paladins can fulfill different rolls is IRRELEVANT fully.
So again… tell me how it’s absolutely fine to have a 15 sec cd Feint which does 20% overall and 40% to aoe dmg reduction, versus Divine Protection which is set to 2 minutes, making it absolutely useless in PVE. In 99.9% of cases you’ll want SoV.
Why even put it in if you’re making it trash?
It’s ignorant of you to downplay the significance of tools like BoP, BoF, Blessing of Sanctuary, and Conc aura in a pvp setting. Physcial CC is prevented while BoPed. 20% damage reduction overall versus 40% AoE sounds good in PvP. Paladins setup kills with HoJ the same way.
It isn’t irrelevant. Why should rogues not excel at what they do if paladins can do things rogues can’t? Many people play paladin and druid for the versatility.
What you want is a class that has mobility, reach, and great personal defensives on a class that already has burst healing, defensive utility that can be used on allies, and now a battle res. A class that can also tank and heal in a pinch.
Ignorance at its finest. Just make one class that can do it all so people dont feel envious.
I already said i didn’t speak for PVP, i was talking about PVE.
Divine Protection is 20% overall, but Feint is 20% overall and 40% AOE, thanks to Illusiveness.
Physical dmg is prevented while BoP yes, but ALL dmg is prevented while you’re CC’d, so which class does actually prevent more dmg in the end afterall? huh?
Rogues are top on everything, you comparing ret to rogues? What are Paladins excelling at?
That is rogues you’re talking about, you know that, right?
Yes i know that’s rogues im talking about dingus. The point i was making is that you want paladins to have what rogues have plus everything paladins have. Paladins can stun and remove CC.
I do. I would main paladin because they have the versatility that rogues do not.
Why would anyone play anything else if paladins had the tools rogue had and be able to tank and heal. You want paladins to have everything without considering what they already have outside of your dps pea brain.
First, Paladins are 100% discounted Outlaw Rogues, they really have been since gaining Holy Power. The class design of Paladins has always been very minimum effort.
Second, Feint was balanced against this idea that you cannot heal yourself. You spend 35 Energy to get a small shield wall in a small window.
This only became overpowered In Shadowlands with the introduction of Conduits such as Recuperator (Slice and Dice Heals), improved Crimson Vial Heals, and Stealth Absorb Shields.
Third, this is only being made worst in Dragon Flight because they are taking the Diablo ARPG Talent Tree style and ham-fisting it into WoW.
Talents that were once balanced around competing for use, are now all selectable at the same time. This is greatly increasing every classes’ ability to be self sufficient and mobile.
Fourth, Paladins’ talents that were competing were always dead talents. They were never options, and they are not being replaced with new viable spells and abilities to keep us competitive with our allies.
For Example:
On Live, I can make a case that Elusiveness and Cheat Death are both good talent options. Both have situational use, and Cheat Death is by no means a “Dead Talent.”
In Dragonflight, Rogues can take both Cheat Death and Elusiveness.
On Live, I can NOT make a case that Justicar’s Vengeance and Selfless Healer are both good talent options. JV has ZERO use, and is in fact a 100% “Dead Talent.”
In Dragonflight, Paladins can take both Justicar’s Vengeance and Selfless Healer.
But Justicar’s Vengeance has seen no changes and is still a 100% “Dead Talent.”
No… you clearly don’t understand.
One DPS spec of a class, should be comparable in strength to another DPS class of another class, in this case, any of the 3 rogue specs are better than ret.
Rogues got 3 flavors of doing DPS, that’s their appeal, like paladins appeal is dpsing, tanking and healing.
And most people like to DPS, than to heal or tank, that’s why rogues are successful even though they do not tank or heal.
What good is the ability to tank or heal for Ret when they’re in ret spec? That doesn’t help them do anything, you’re not going to tank the boss or heal others in any meaningful way. Save someone with Lay on Hands once a fight if you get to them? Sure… but maybe it wasn’t needed and a healer would have gotten to them.
If you look at the trees and what they give, Rogues trees give more bank for the buck on any comparable talents.
That’s the issue. (or at least one of them)
The utility is nice, but that utility cannot hold back Paladins to such a degree they become their own liability.
Major Cooldown:
Paladin: Bubble - 3.5 min
Rogue: Evasion - 2 min
Anti Caster Cooldown:
Paladin: BoSW - 3 min
Rogue: Cloak of Shadows - 2 min
Minor Cooldown:
Paladin: Divine Protection - 1.5 min / 20%
Rogue: Feint - 15 sec / 20%-40%AoE
Major Heal:
Paladin: Flash of Light + Selfless Healer - 15 sec build up
Rogue: Crimson Vial - 30 sec cooldown
Passive Heal:
Paladin: Judgement of the Light
Rogue: Recuperator
BoSW has the ability to be casted on others, but if it’s used on ourselves, is that extra 1 min cooldown costing us our lives? Is that “versatility” worth it?
Same with Judgement of Light, if it’s healing everyone for 1,000, cool. But if Recuperator is healing the rogue for 10,000. I’d rather the Paladin heal themselves for 10,000…
Is Vial outputting more HPS than 2 Selfless Healer FoLs?
