Rogues vs Paladins

Classes Paladin
23

Rogue, Druid, and more recently Paladin (I started playing paladin in WoD) have been my main characters historically. I love all three classes.

Rogues definitely have it better than Ret paladins as far as defensives and mobility. And in PvE, using your dps resources to off heal isnt a worthwhile trade off for having poor self defensives.

For Defensives: Rogues can select
-Cheat Death
-20%/40% AoE wall on feint. 15 second cd
-Recuperator (.5% health per second)
-Crimson Vial (1% HP per second if cast on cd)
-10 to 12% Leech from Leeching poison if using wound/deadly so mainly Assassination.
-10% stamina for outlaw
-10% damage reduction during dance for sub.
-Evasion 2 min, less for outlaw
-Cloak 2 min
-Sub can use vanish to gain 30% HP bubble if there are enough pts to select this when the trees are finalized.

Ret Paladin has
-Bubble
-Shield of vengeance 2 min cooldown
-eye for an eye 1 min cd 35% dr for physical only
-spellwarding 3 min
-Lay on hands 10 to 3 min cd depending on talent selection
-Judgement of light - very small heals, i think less than .5% hp per second
-golden path - small heal while standing in consecrate, i dont know what % hp per second this is in DF.
-selfless healer - one instant flash heal every 12 to 18 seconds.

For mobility -

Rogues have:
-15% base speed increase, Outlaw can take an additional 15% passive speed increase as well!
-Shadowstep, 1 charge for outlaw, 2 charges for sub and sin 30 sec cooldown
-sprint 1 min 70% speed 8 sec duration
-outlaw also has grappling hook 30 sec cd which gets reduced as well

Paladins have:
-Divine steed, 45 second cooldown 100% speed for 3 seconds.

  • If 3 additional talent points are spent, this becomes
    Divine steed, 45 sec cd, 2 charges, 100% speed, 5 seconds.

And thats it lol.

Should rogues have more mobility than paladins? Absolutely. There was a long period of time in this game where rogues actually had worse mobility than warriors and it never made sense. Agility based leather classes should be more mobile…

But what about defense? Slower moving plate classes should absolutely have more passive defense and strong defensive abilities, and while paladins have strong cooldown based abilities like bubble and spellwarding, their passive defense is worse than pretty much every dps in the game except for maybe hunters. And they even have less passive healing than rogues too. Paladin has nothing at all that comes close to a cheat death or feint shield wall.

I dont think asking for 1 min cd divine protection plus shield of vengeance is too much, but thats just me.

12 Likes
24

You won’t be able to get either, we don’t have enough points for those.

This is the cookie cutter spec.

You’d have to give up 30% cd reduce on Divine Shield, BoP and SoV to get 1 of them. Or Blessing of Spellwarding for the other.
Judgment of Light and Golden Path don’t compare to those. So we don’t have utility in healing without nerfing our survivability cd’s by 30%.

So basically Paladins have no passive self-healing.

I agree they should, but should the gap be this big?
Movement is on top of most enjoyable things a character can have in a game, if not the top.
Spending 4 points total to get such low movement is pathetic.

But yes, your points are good.

What remains to be seen, is if the devs are going to leave Paladins in this sad state or they’ll actually spend some time on our trees.
At this point in time, my confidence level in them fixing Paladins is at an all time low.

3 Likes
25

I am hoping for a priest level update in the near future. When they dropped that priest update my jaw dropped while i read the number of changes, new spells, etc. Hopefully paladin gets the same quality of development.

I would settle for a rework of ret aura, steed, and some more passive defense.

4 Likes
26

Neither does Ret(which the topic is on), as paladins can’t magical do all three roles at the same time. They have to choose one.

2 Likes
27

To extend this a little, currently Ret Paladins have two competing and useful healing talents - Selfless Healer and Healing Hands. In Dragonflight they are still going to be competing talents with you only able to take one of them. So Rogues (and many other classes) are seeing their options expand, but Paladins aren’t.

And in fact, Rogues often make better emergency tanks than Ret’s do - they’re usually higher on the threat list (due to doing more DPS), and they’ve got better defensive cooldowns - Ret’s get to use one of Bubblle, BoP, or LoH, and in the former cases they have to taunt to hold the mob’s attention and that only gives a few seconds of fixation and then the mob looks for someone not immune. Because Evasion and Feint don’t count as immunities, the mob will stick to the Rogue through them.

A Rogue can buy those few seconds to finish a boss or brez the tank. A ret likely can’t, or does so at the cost of their own life (and consequent loss of group DPS).

When healing runs, I prefer teammates with good mitigation or self-healing over off-healing in most cases - those specs with strong self-healing/leech, etc., are easier to heal. Off-healers usually just end up sniping someone I’m healing anyway, or putting their heal into someone I’ve just healed, which means it’s wasted effort. So I don’t tend to think “Cool have a Ret, that’ll make life easier”, but I do see we have a Warrior or a DH and think that, or I see we have a Mage and I’m thinking “Ranged with shields and amazing instant movement, shouldn’t be standing in fire much”.

6 Likes
28

a priest, a shaman, a hunter, a demon hunter, a mage and a blood elf walk into a bar…

Sure its a great blind, sap, disarm, spear, berserk and vendetta remover but it’s a bit funny how easily it can be answered for a 5 minute cd

1 Like
29

It heals 36 HP per .9 second ticks with my current gear.

It’s literal trash.

30

Lmfao you responded in a hostile manor to someone who was seemingly trying to get you to look at a different perspective

You don’t sound very temper tantrum-y at all and sound very cool calm and collected

31

Do you have a problem?

32

No, you do though and it’s QQ WAAAAAHHH ret paladin something QQ WAAAAAAHHHH

33

I’m not the one saying childish things.
The one i responded to was ignorant.

You’re just writing like a toddler.

34

You act like a child throwing a temper tantrum on the forums expect to get responses as if you are one

35

From your replies you’re the childish one. Now get lost.

36

Typical “no u” responses I would expect from someone like you then the “get lost” as if you have any authority on the forums

37

You came in here looking for an argument, you man-child.

38

No I came in here to read about your post then saw someone respond to you in an adult manner then you returned it in a very emotional way by throwing out random caps lock words and calling them ignorant. Now I’m letting you know

39

I see you’re very emotional yourself.

So get lost hypocrite.

40

Oh there it is again lmfao “no u” claim then the

I’m shocked

41

There aren’t any "no you"s in the truth.

You came in here and whined from the get go, if that doesn’t say emotional then you’re delusional as well.

42

Here we go again with the mindless response. You didnt ready a single thing didnt you. How is BoP gonna save you against ove enviroments where most if not ALL damage is magic, what does bos have to do with our defensives? HEALING is not a defensive.

Man this is why we are stuck in this class design from 2005

3 Likes