Correct
Except dagger off hands are much harder to get.
If you started swords you could get thrash blade and blood moon off hand.
Also carnage is a lot easier to run as saber slash.
I’m gonna sim myself when I get home.
Rune Swords look pretty badass HYA! HYA! Schweeng! OOF! (spit up blood) FINISH HIM
No goal posts were set, it is you who is hyperfocused on raid only, when the rest of us are talking about the other 95% of the game.
The things we were discussing includes no mobs that were immune to poisons, we were talking about raiding.
So yes the goal posts of our conversation were moved.
Go saber slash and be 8% behind, it will be ok
Like Fire Elementals, Earth Elementals, Air Elementals, Water Elementals, Princess Theradras, Lord Incendion…
Apart from the occasional fill-in when someone in the guild doesn’t show up, I don’t raid any more. It doesn’t interest me. I am specifically talking about the other 95% of the game like PvP, 5 Man dungeons, Open world.
You are clearly getting defensive because you don’t want to lose a 40 energy mutilate.
But that was not what we were discussing.
You’re bringing it up now and it’s moving goal posts.
And I’m not getting defensive I’m sticking to the points we were talking about
That’s honestly my biggest complaint about the entire design. They made Deadly Brew the DPS rune and in the same slot as the Tank rune. However, that just means heavy Assassination investment is required for literally every DPS build, which pretty much ruins any cleave/flurry fun from Combat and Hemo is downright pointless and the Sub tree is just flat out bad.
I’d like to move away from Daggers for Tank Rogues, but that’s just not really in the cards with how good Mutilate is. It really isn’t because of the filler spam either, but because things like Unfair Advantage and Riposte simply work better with a big juicy non-dagger in our MH… but not enough to make the move from Mutilate to Saber Slash be useful. Main Gauche might as well not even be a choice, and I still don’t have it learned because why would I waste the time or money to get it? I mean Mutilate is supposed to pair with poisons, but all I need is any kind of poison to make it work fully, so no Deadly Brew required, and that’s that.
And with how CP/FA works… not only are we going to be stuck with Daggers until the end, we’re going to be stuck hunting for super fast daggers until the end. Right now that’s Julie’s Dagger for the OH. At lvl60 that’s going to be Alcor’s Sunrazor for the OH… and there’s literally nothing better. So unless Blizzard explicitly makes an updated version of Corehound’s Tooth or similar that’s super fast, we’re very pigeon-holed into spending a LOT of cash or using a Diremaul blue dagger all the way through to Naxx.
That’s just… sucky.
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Everything about rogue runes screams to me that the guys coming up with them have never actually played rogue and dont care about them.
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Saber Slash
Adds a bleed. Bleeds break blind and gouge, making it clunky to use unless you are just using it for raid dps. Why not have it add attack speed? swords/combat is already about the white hits, could have gone harder on that with saber slash. SoD is about trying new playstyles and this rune that is for non daggers gimps the sword rogues utility for everything not combo builder/finisher spamming in raids. -
Just a flesh wound
Needs another rune to be of any use at all. meanwhile other classes that get a tanking rune get a rune that does better and has no need of a second rune to make it viable. Mildly annoying. -
Main gauche
No reason to even talk about it, i dont think they could make this worth it if they wanted too when mut exists -
Shuriken Toss
Its good for pulling mobs? -
Slaughter from the shadows
its on the same rune slot as Deadly brew, so its basically not viable. If you could do 40 energy backstabs with deadly brew then maybe you could do that instead of mutilate. As is its a PvP talent if you want to not use mut for whatever reason. -
Shadowstep
Triggers the global cooldown. It doesnt in retail, many skills dont trigger global cooldown in vanilla/classic, but the devs decided they didnt want it off the global because rogues could shadowstep kick, and the devs play caster i guess? True it doesn’t NEED to be off the global cooldown because you can time it, and its not hard to do, but it feels like crap and it makes it less of a twitch reactive play kind of ability which is what rogue is about. -
Quick Draw
This one takes the cake. Its basically a rune that lets the rogue use his ranged auto attack while moving, and it costs energy and has a 10 second cooldown.
A rune that lets you use your auto attack, that has a cooldown, AND costs energy. it blows my mind. “but it adds a slow”. ugh.
Overall the runes are about letting classes play with new play styles or to make previously nonviable specs more viable to play. Rogues are probably the only class that has a talent tree that is still unviable for raids (Subtlety). Rogues are not weak now by any means, they are good in raids and PvP right now. The runes are just not that interesting. Rogue play style went from hitting 2-5 combo builders then finisher to 1 combo builder then finisher, depending on the tree. The viable talent builds went from combat/assassination hybrid to different variant of combat/assassination hybrid. Multiple phases of rogues getting minor/no changes, meanwhile druids can ranged dps, melee dps, tank, or heal, and get massive sweeping balance changes every other patch giving them their forum whiner tier wish list for class changes (healing in moonkin form?). Well now its my turn so here is the whine post.
tl;dr: get bent
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Excactly this! Old mate over there keeps saying Sabreslash is viable but that’s SIMULATING WITH BEST IN SLOT!
I reckon whoever designed Rogue runes plays a Mage based on this information alone.
If you make generous assumptions about the amount of combo points you can get from Honor Among Thieves and compare builds that benefit from free combo points and are based off of doing as much poison damage as possible then the difference in overall dps in boss fights in raids isn’t that big, therefore we shouldn’t care that Saber Slash is trash. Makes sense.
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What would that solve? We are a few versions of the game away from rogues using multiple cp builders in a rotation. I think cata was the first to introduce dispatch as a proc/execute.
So if your goal is to just change one builder for another, ok but why? I think they want dps rogues using daggers which I agree with. If it isn’t mutilate it will be backstab, but it wont ever be both.
As for tanks, I think they change saber slash to be a frontal cleave when attacking from the front or some other bonus positional requirements that dissuade dps from using swords/fists/maces.
It’s not that Mutilate is “overpowered” - it’s that “it’s the only thing in the rogue toolkit that feels good, or is even half way as powerful as other class runes”.
Nerfing Mutilate isn’t the answer - leave Mutilate alone… Buff the others. They’re not competitive in PvE at all. Heck, Mutilate is barely competitive.
LOL.
Sure buddy.
150 DPS is not a lot.
So then sim it with your current gear and get back to us.
You all keep saying this like it’s some “gotcha”, infact saber is much easier to play with carnage which is more of a DPS increase than most of you failing it with Mut.
Matter of fact when I get home I will sim my current Mut set and then sim the same gear but as saber with thrash blade and blood moon off hand.
Y’all acting like 150 DPS at the highest possible end is a lot when you’re doing 1600 DPS
Naw your level 40 opinion is irrelevant. Mutilate is doing less damage than Hunter pets and Shadow Priest dots… Its always the bad rogues and players that cry about “Mutilate is too strong” when in reality and compared to everything else, it’s probably the only thing making Rogues viable.
If guilds stopped existing and the raids were all LFR, people wouldn’t be crying about min/maxing and “being forced into a playstyle” because the only reason they cry about this stuff is because guilds gatekeep gear from them if they don’t min/max.
It’s really sad. It’s either that or they care so much about being competitive in the eyes of their peers, it’s a flex thing or it’s an insecurity thing. Has nothing to do with downing the bosses. People aren’t going “oh man, I’m forced to play Mut Daggers because we’re stuck on this boss”, they’re crying because of social reasons lmao.
mutilate can easily hit for 700+ with one global…more if instant poisons proc. That’s FAR above what any dot does with a single tick.
I don’t remember ever saying it was too strong so im glad to come to find out im not a “bad rogue” or a “bad player”.
in pvp? Just like always rogue exceeds and is exceptional due to cc and control and SOD is no exception. Ranged kidney stun is amazing…and a gap closer(two if you really wanted it i suppose) Are fantastic for any melee class. Rogue isn’t only good due to mutilate although it certainly helps.
We were talking about Mutilate damage and if you think 700+ is alot for a global, you must not be playing SoD. Also you derailing the conversation and talking about other runes is irrelevant, take the L and move on old man.
Imagine rogues running combat swords for 20 years in classic and still wanting to run swords in 2024. This is season of daggers. Let us have our moment.
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