SND still being a thing, Energy starvation with way too many talents to fix it. Overly complex without any pay off. Too squishy and vanish is useless in open world. Hero talents kinda suck. Blade flurry has a cap and time limit.
So far cut to the chase being baseline and shadowdance going back to sub is the only really good changes i can see as a causal.
The #1 issues is being balanced around taking the vast majority of energy talents. It feels like a penalty when in the past taking energy talents was a choice.
All three specs had baseline relentless strikes and then their own unique energy spec specific returns.
Yep rogues feel so bad to play low levels its insane. I don’t mind a slower paced class but having to wait until level 52 just to feel like i’m doing more then auto attack after a few seconds of combat is just not fun. There should be a better way to balance rogues pacing then by starving them of energy.
Relentless Strikes was made baseline for all three specs for that reason. The three specs still had their spec specific energy returns and it was obtained early in the leveling process.
With DF the best energy tools like Vigor and Thistle Tea come way too late in the talent trees. Energy saving talents like Tight Spender is late in the leveling process as well as Alacrity with the stacking haste help build up energy.
Rushed Setup is similar to Relentless Strikes but not exactly the same.
Consoldiate those energy talents in the Rogue class tree and you start to see better flow in the early levels while not penalizing builds for not taking all of the energy talents or most of them in the Rogue class tree.
You still need to take energy talents in the spec specific trees too (eg Outlaw Combat Potency, Fatal Flourish, etc).
But it is too much really and not fun or balanced honestly. No other class is penalized that hard in both class and spec tree.
I don’t mind slice and dice as it’s been part of the rogue toolkit forever.
Most likely felt like it meant more when the damage payoff was bigger as we had more white damage.
Modern day rogues are just too bloody many spinning plates and it feels gross to play (looking at you outlaw)
After playing cata rogues and SoD rogues even it make me miss simpler times.
or… remove energy entirely and try to rebuild a new set of rules for Rogue, Monk, Feral. Energy hasn’t kept up with the changes around hasted cooldowns, and even Fire Mage has off GCD damage.
The worse news for Rogue in that mix is that all it can do is DPS. At least the other energy classes can opt-out.
Fury and Rage function similar to each other, Templar Strikes nerfed because only 5 holy power, but same system under the hood. The closest resource system is Focus.
What MoP remix has shown me is that weapon damage is dumb. I had swords that did 3-5 damage and hit for 250 around level 20. Oh, and mastery procs would hit for almost 1,000.
Why are free off-hand attacks scalable to that point but basic autos are still horrible? Let alone the absolutely zero correlation between listed weapon damage and actual hit damage post-Legion… I still believe that rather than the SnD talent doubling down on auto attack haste, that effect should be baseline and the talent should provide your mastery as a flat increase to white damage instead.
Removing energy is a drastic step.
Easier solution is what the OG devs came up with by having Relentless Strikes baseline for all three specs.
Currently what is happening with energy for Rogues is feast or famine where you take all the energy talents “you are swimming in energy”. Which is why those in Rogue discord asked for nerfs to base line energy without thinking the ramifications of what they were asking.
They didn’t follow through with the thought experiment of what would happen to players that choose not to take all the energy talents by advocating nerfs to Rogue energy gains baseline.
Revert the baseline energy nerfs, consolidate the energy talents in the Rogue general class tree and make relentless strikes baseline again for all three specs and not sub exclusive.
Done.
Fixed.
Then if a player wants to take a talent like Tight Spender or Thistle Tea it becomes a fun opportunity cost and not mandatory.
clearly skill issue my guy. contact me and i will teach you how to rogue
Ill have you know, nothing is more fun than hitting sinister strike 2x, waiting 5 seconds, hitting it again, waiting another 5-10 seconds before doing a finisher is the most fun i will ever have leveling up
Even if its a joke. “Git good” and “skill issue” are a poison to the class as a whole.
Energy regen is our way of having a cd. Downtime has always been a thing and always will. Impactful cds and abilities wouldn’t have their punch and would be reduced to doing much less as that is the point of those attacks - being impactful- respectively to the individual rogue, their choices, and specialization.
They stated resource flooding across the game is cutting down. (Ex reading DKs wanting to not be a noodle). They aren’t going to make something “baseline” without taking from somewhere else, actual balance instead of pipe dream ideas is what they are shooting for. We all have our different ways to excel and blurring the lines doesn’t help when it comes to regeneration. Fatebound on beta grants assassination 2 pt mutilate + 2 for each crit from SF and Deal Fate (upgraded node emphasizing SF to grant an additional interaction. They addressed energy by more cb pts > less building > more spending. (So what? 50 energy saved? Same with Outlaw) that way both specs can still crank without messing with energy directly. (Envenom hits pretty dang hard on beta as well with the new talents).
having resource exist and be impactful is a good thing, every spec has to take all oif their resource captones in all of wows history if their designed good. rogue having to take all its energy talents isnt something new to the history of other specs, it should have been the norm to begin with. this is literally a skill issue, no spec shouldnt have its resource not matter
Yes resources should matter, nobody wants to drown or starve. However that doesn’t change the fact the for levels 20-52 rogues feel awful to play. If you can’t kill anything in a hit or two your waiting for energy. Crimson vial uses energy, CCs use energy or have cool downs. Rogues have to work twice as hard when leveling compared to other classes just to survive.
At end game its different, You got energy for days and never die. But before that? its been miserable for years at this point. Vanish for instance. having two charges of it and all the buffs, great for endgame. but you can’t use it in open world. it just resets the mob.
That’s what I’m getting at. Rogues casual and open world content is heavily neglected. Sure someone who’s played rogue before or is willing to put in more work will overcome it. And frankly i don’t mind working harder myself if i felt like I’d be rewarded for that effort. but I’m not. i can play ret pal with my brain off and have a way easier time. not to mention just how much the class flows rationally now.
imma be honest friend, world content is a meme, leveling is also a meme. keep playing paladin then? i never had issues with my rogue leveling each expansion.
It disappeared for two expansions for outlaw. The whole aspect of even casting it is just silly.
That being said normal energy regen outside of adren rush and even more abysmal leveling. Why would anyone would continue to level a class when you have no buttons to press
Outlaw energy levels are not congruent with how the spec is designed and the lowest in the history of the spec Downtime for Sub is expected and Assassinatiion down time is too extreme and needs a boost to energy too.
Outlaw and Assassination are really struggling without relentless strikes.
Sub is doing fine with relentless strikes though.
Bottom line is this was the same issue in the DF beta and will be the same problem in TWW beta till launch.
Book mark this.
the leveling process is not really the focus at the moment. Tbf its quick enough that you shouldnt be that affected by it. Also funny enough classic rogue was basically auto attack similator.
I enjoyed not having slice and dice in Legion, didn’t really get why it came back. They definitely pruned too much during legion but snd was not missed - didn’t play Outlaw. I think vigor should just be baseline at say level 20-30. Regen rate at low levels should be increased though, it is pretty ridiculous. I did the Exile’s Reach with a rogue recently and the part where she’s teaching you stuff early on took forever. Her health bar reset multiple times from auto attack while I waited for enough combo points to use a finisher 3 times per the quest.
That’s always been the problem.
Relentless Strikes would help only if there’s a baseline energy deprivation, so that Rogue isn’t GCD locked. That isn’t how the game is designed though now with the exception of Assassination, which energy works fine for.
This is worse state for Rogue energy in the history of Rogue easily.
Not acceptable.