Frankly, the game (retail) hell even TBC / Wrath are just too messy, there is way too much clutter and filler crap going on, this has been used to give players busy work to do while they wait for meaningful damage. TBC was the beginning of the end.
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Pumping the brakes.
âWeâ=Rogue? Subtlety?
For Sub, I somewhat agree.
First, FW should be removed and Sub baseline should be buffed to counteract armor instead of yet another multiplier. Thatâs not important but Iâm going to use the current FW implementation as an example just because thatâs currently in game and can help visualize. This is not an endorsement of FW.
(Expose Armor is another story.)
I feel SecTech being the only uncapped AoE is right. Itâs got a decently long cooldown and is reduced from other finishers. I believe Black Powder should be removed. This means SecTech is really DFA nonsense all over but please, hear me out. Shadowed Finishers should cleave to ALL targets with FW instead of just the main target (soft capped), to round out the AoE kit. Between the two uncapped delivery mechanisms, one reliable and the other proc based but able to be made reliable through Dance Shuriken Storm, the kit would be pushed back toward priority damage and keeps a huge proportion of AoE potential. Kits cannot be devoid of AoE in the current game, especially during Fortified weeks.
Sin doing Poison Bomb and Indiscriminate Carnage seems fine, correct even. I could see small adjustments for QoL but when the right hand gives, the left takes away.
Outlaw having Blade Flurry is fine, but KS/BR should be uncapped during BF and capped without (no longer triggering BF attacksâmastery procs within KS still triggering BF normally). That small change would help and give some answer to mixing uncapped and capped. Itâs not like KS is doing incredible damage right now anyways.
At a general level, thatâs (1) cooldown responses to uncapped burst scenarios, (2) limited target cleave for sustained capped scenarios, and (3) attempting to refocus Rogue back towards priority damage.
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Shadowed finishers shouldnt cleave targets. Its eviscerate not legion akaari nova (from the artifact) if anything can be an optional talent.
Yes rogues should be going back to rupturing and nuking priority targets with outlaw to be the cleaver as always intended.
Everyone being good at ever further confuses things. Ex: WW and DH have a lot of abilities that cleave but then ask for ST changes when their abilities also cleave (fof / bd/ ds etc) .
ST is dfa (50% version) all over again except probably more volatile depending on targets. We are tuned around stuff like this.
An AOE ability should not be good in single target and why things are whacky in pvp.
Black powder is fine but i heavily disagree with padding like we are doing and people spreading propaganda as a result in both pve and pvp.
Priority damage is the heart and soul of rogues.
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As long as Paladin has one damage spec and it has to be âsolidâ (conditionally), pure damage classes will unfortunately never have a niche that cannot be replaced by someone with more utility or off-role capacity. I donât think we ever see an RPG where classes like Feral Druid are intentionally designed under Rogue because of their group buffs. In principle, I understand, but in practice, if Rogues are outclassing every other option in priority damage, you have a game full of Rogues and Mages and nothing else (except to fill the meta role of tank and healing).
I wouldnât say I want everyone to be good at everything, but rather nobody should be left completely out of any niche. Cleave damage should be a little weaker in some cases for Sub than Outlaw, stronger in others. Sin should also find a seat at the table, without strangulating every raiding Rogue to simply ârespecâ if they want to be raid viable.
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Agreed, a dash of stuff is fine but not âi do everything hur hurâ. Thatâs what lead us to triple dh or outlaw in bfa keystones as an example.
The tunings going live on tuesday are good across the board. F gimmicks regardless.
Really hoping ds goes away already and baked back into our stuff or a choice node there to make it happen.
Really tired of ds up and down since legion.
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Honestly, I always really liked the idea of Shuriken Combo. It was so cool. Using Shuriken Storm to charge a huge Eviscerate hit. Felt so fitting for Subtlety, too.
I suppose it wasnât good enough to compare to true AOE which is probably why it got replaced with Black Powder. But, stillâŚ
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Gimmicky one shots are bullish. No one likes them and they get over nerfed. Your point is moot.
on the other hand i just got slammed by a 270k unstable affliction crit.
ouch.
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What gets me is that thereâs ways to organize all three specs to make them unique, but the gatekeepers in the Rogue Discord donât want to hear any of it.
The problem with Outlaw and Assassination is that their damage is underwhelming. Outlaw is balanced based on Roll the Bones, which makes all of their abilities naturally weaker and why current season BiS is loaded with elemental procs/on-use damage trinkets to buoy the damage 30-40%.
But you canât point that out because the âgoodâ players will complain.
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LOOOOOOOOOOOOL yup those dudes are 100% skitzoâŚ
Worse they are so âFan boyâ for blizzard that they cant see past their own garbage design philosophy.
One thing I will give them is their ability to sim stuff out really well; theyâre very good at that.
Problem with the way they think is that they think everyone has to be playing exactly like they do in order to justify their way of thinking or something⌠Dude, the paladin discord is every bit as cancerous.
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Bruh I must be a weather man. You mean to tell me that they nerf rogue cc to the dirt, they buff the damage to abuseable amounts and nerf it to the ground? Didnât see that one coming. The flag 1 shot wasnât even that broken compared to other stuff Iâve seen in the past, people just cried because they couldnât cc or peel a 1.5min ramping cd lol.
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Blizzard: Damn you rogues! shakes fist at sky
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No ty. PvP players are wholly incapable of making ideas that benefit PvP without absolutely dumpstering spevs in PvE.
You can add ST strength without improving cleave/aoe as well. Thats just something blizz (and you apparently) doesnt seem to understand. Bad example.
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Donât get slick out the mouth, go apply and show them how then.
You canât buff cleaving abilities without keeping in mind it also improves single target hatred. Everyone wants to do everything, that aint good for anyone. Thatâs not balanced at all and people are off their rocker thinking they should be good at everything.
Iâm going to kindly ask we donât talk ever again. You attempt to get a rise out of people and I donât like âdiscussingâ anything with people similar to you.
Good day sir.
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Well thatâs just wrong on a fundamental level. The content a player enjoys most has zero to do with their capability of understanding or discussing class design philosophy.
In design I have seen a much greater number of PVE oriented players who donât understand game design, but if I took that on face value only I would be a fool considering that most players PVE and less PVP.
Thing is in most games that include both PVE and PVP the number of skills required to do PVE is typically (not always) Less than the skills required to do PVP because PVE is generally scripted and min-maxed where this is not always possible in PVP due to the tendency of players to adapt.
PVE DPS / HPS / Mitigation for tanks is actually kinda meaningless in the grand scheeme of things in the same way that these values are also meaningless in gross to PVP.
What matters most is that the Values in game are tuned so that they are cooperative with PVP, and then the PVE encounters can be then easily tuned and designed around those player character values.
Thatâs the really dead simple way of doing thingsâŚ
Problems arise when âDEVâsâ who are not designers or engineers; who donât understand core design philosophy get their own personal player biases involved and buff / nerf things based on their feelings or desires for their own personal gains⌠I cant tell you how many times I have seen this take place because its far too many to count, and also very evident in WoW.
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So many words to still have it entirely backwards. This is primarily a PvE game. PvP should be tuned afterwards, not the other way around.
You wanna take out an aoe ability for PvP? Go ahead if thats what PvP players think is best. But youre not gonna eliminate it from the spec/game entirely.
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Has nothing to do with what I want⌠It has everything to do with the patently false statement you madeâŚ
And I stand 100% by the fact that youâre absolutely wrong.
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I agree but pressing Shuriken Storm, Black Powder ad nauseum could use some modernization, which means updates to niche. Itâs like you said about going backâthe game isnât the same âone size fits allâ, yet Sub is pretty on top in virtually every pillar right now thanks to burst availability, cooldown reduction, and 2-button uncapped AoE.
A bit of hyperbole: Thereâs a lot more that goes into it than two buttons, but not more so than all the plates Outlaw has to spin for slightly lower performance in all but 3 target cleaveâwhich Sin crushes us both. Worse for Outlaw though, as 3 target pulls are generally double pulled as long as there arenât overlapped casts on stun immune trashâmostly because the tank also wants to parse and their damage is uncapped.
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I agree it needs some updates and have provided ideas in other threads as for how to do that, but i dont agree sub is currently on top like youre suggesting for any reason besides tuning (in outlaws case) and spec design (in sins case).
Sub just sucks at cleave, and Sin should be top ST due to its inability to swap targets and the nature of dots.
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Warcraft Logs is pretty objective in standings. The spread isnât astronomical but itâs enough that exactly in past versions every Rogue went Combat to be âviableâ. Sub is parsing at 4 times the numbers as Outlaw. The inherent RNG reinforced in Outlawâs design isnât doing it any favors either, because anecdotally âOutlaw can pumpâ, but statistically, theyâre not.
Either way, Iâd love to Ambush, Evis a mage again and see them below 80% HP, instead of still fully shielded from their own shield. Also tired of sitting on skills because of the number of Uno Reverse cards in PvP.
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