There is a clear issue with only one rogue being able to apply deadly poison and sabre slash. This interferes with poison spec gameplay by prohibiting other rogues from using envenom, destroying their damage potential. On top of this, its not just having multiple poison rogues that is a problem as deadly brew is far and away the best choice in slot currently for all DPS rogue specs in PVE meaning that even if the other rogue is playing an entirely different build you are still getting your damage potential destroyed as a poison spec.
4 Likes
Hopefully everyone keeps the feedback going and things will get resolved soon. If Hunter nerfs were done within a couple a days, perhaps we’ll see more responses to these kinds of issues.
I’ve seen that Rogue tank is not viable to tank, especially at this level.
2 Likes
What were some of the issues you saw with rogue tank? Just curious
The parry buff they get is practically useless as the percentage of how often someone will parry vs X amount of attacks does no real benefit in mitigating damage.
So it is essentially rogues yelling at things and getting the full business with virtually not mitigation.
Blade dance is required to tank which requires combo points to use. swapping targets
losses you combo points. Energy starved, rogue apm is generally just low so holding threat in a dungeon situation is just impossible. in general rogue tank is just miserable.
2 Likes
Yea this is another thing. Combo points are not friendly in this iteration of the game. You swap, you lose your combos.
I’ve been concerned about these exact issues. I made a post about it a couple days ago: A few thoughts about rogue tanking
TLDR: I think they should make the following changes to Main gauche and Blade dance (along with introducing Stagger in later tiers):
Main gauche
“While the buff is active, parrying any attack will generate X energy.”
Blade dance
“While the buff is active, you will retain 3CP when switching targets. The points must be spent within X seconds, or you will lose them.”
That does seem odd considering they removed debuff limits for classes like Warlocks.
I can agree that losing combo points on target switching is kinda lame for tanking. But generally speaking I can never be sympathetic toward rogue. The class has no mana and has always been OP specially in PVP in almost every expansion.
Snap, I didn’t think about that. Dude, I’ll bet that’s one thing they will and I would love that, because I have hated losing combo points when switching targets, and always have. Travel back through time, to when I had hair and no priorities or children, and I still hated losing CP on a target switch.
Avoidance tanks don’t work unless you have stagger mechanics that convert damage to damage over time (ala monks), you have things like ghost dance in POE that provide mitigation/shields for a limited number of hits that go through, or you have active self-recovery mechanics like blood DKs (who also use high parry rates). Otherwise you’re just waiting for the bad RNG where you take 2-3 sequential hits without dodge/parry and get owned.
1 Like
100% dodge rogue will be bis for smth almost guaranteed… phase 1, this is good feedback! new features shouldn’t unlock after all content has been absorbed.
It’s not reliable, that’s the problem. It makes no difference if you can get there it relies on ghost strike or whatever that can be missed leaving you vulnerable.
100%? that and 0% are the only things reliable… i know where youre coming from tho as i played monk in early d3 when all you got was dodge. the eventual chance you didnt dodge, you were one shot. no bueno in hardcore.
Bump, this absolutely needs to be addressed.
If avoidance is all you have and one component of your stack is unreliable, you have nothing. Other tanks also have higher avoidance, but they have high armor if something goes though. The same considerations go into building evasion characters in POE and other games, you need multiple layers of defense, not just avoidance. No-one wants to risk a 40-man raid wipe that removes everyone’s world buffs on a ghostly strike not being dodged by the boss.
1 Like
i understand at a systems level what you mean, but at a real level, evasion tanking has totally been done before without new features and was really good in tbc. you need a fat stamina stack which makes threat the issue, moreso than defensive. all tanks suffer from the “one bad X” feature–a missed taunt, an unlucky crush, blah blah… no tank should be self reliant and that failed thinking brought retail tanks to the joke of a role they are now. thats my take anyways.
them trying to intersect parry and dodge is fine but for p2, like you’re saying, its time to throw up more raw hp on the ehp stack. stagger should never be added and was a mistake for brewmasters. they only recently figured out the massive ehp implications alongside a healer and in shadowlands adjusted to where it is today–almost balanced.
what all the tanks can actually agree on is that all of them need to play closer to shaman now because weew shaman tanks are crazy good (pls no nerf)
In addition to the problems with deadly brew/envenom, only one rogue at a time can benefit from saber slash DOT, which is the main reason to run it over sinister strike from the testing I’ve done wherein sinister strike is consistently hitting for much more than the swing portion of saber slash.
Some tanks will struggle in certain combat situations while others flourish.
This is a fact of classic with almost every class. Some are good for X, some for Y.
Shaman tank are extremely good in dungeons, but for any caster mobs, they are basically useless as they cant block to regen mana and just starve.
This is why warriors exist.
Rogues will likely become absolute single target raid boss monster tanks and have near 100% mitigation in higher levels. Beyond adding something dumb like FOK, and making rogues into an actual meme, not sure what the solution here would be.
I agree with you that reasonable weaknesses are good and add flavor.
Shamans are not “basically useless” against casters however. They have higher elemental mitigation than any other tank. Their mana resource is also a bonus rather than a limitation against mobs like this. It allows them to be flexible in frontloading their damage and threat output if the pull requires it. Mail gear tends to have greater protective stats as well, when compared to leather.
On top of this, no tank excels against casters. That’s why it is common practice to eliminate casters as a priority in group pulls.
Rogues in contrast use energy, which is completely inflexible to the size of the pull you’re tanking. They are presumably intended to maintain threat in groups by tab targeting (because they lack AoE, have high single target damage and a lower GCD), but they lose all CP when changing targets.
Even if they allow rogue tanks to maintain threat by just slapping a large threat modifier on them or giving them an AoE damaging ability, this just feels bad as a tank (to maintain threat via autoattacks while being starved for resources).
My suggestion of a solution is that they address these resource issues by synergizing existing runes to help with energy generation and combo point building/preservation.