A few thoughts about rogue tanking

TLDR:

  • I believe rogue is at its most fun when you’re encouraged and enabled to manage your class abilities and resources well
  • Rogue tanking currently feels like it works against the class design for resource management, which doesn’t feel good to play
  • I included a couple suggested changes to main gauche and blade dance in line with this paradigm:

Blade dance

  • Make it a flat parry % and tie only the duration to combo points spent, like SnD (fixes the common issue where you can’t reapply because “a more powerful spell is active”)
  • “While the buff is active, you will retain up to 3 unspent combo points when switching targets”

Main gauche

  • None of the other rogue tanks I’ve talked with use Main gauche. The active mitigation is nice, but the threat and damage benefits offered by saber slash render this rune largely obsolete, even as a tank (until perhaps level 60 when you’re approaching avoidance cap)

  • Give it a threat or damage bonus (so it can be used as an opener, OH weapon damage hits like a wet noodle)

  • “While the buff is active, parrying any attack will generate 5 energy”

Just a Flesh Wound
Reduce the passive threat modifier if needed to balance the above changes.

Post ahead

To preface this, I would like to say that I’m incredibly excited about rogue tanking. I think the idea of an avoidance based tank is flavorful and fun, and I love that Blizzard is creating new playstyles for Classic.

Despite my excitement, I think rogue tanks present 3 major issues not present in any other tanking class, and these are issues that I would argue venture beyond healthy weaknesses into unfun anti-synergies with the role of tanking. The first two could presumably be addressed in future phases, while I think there’s an argument for addressing the third during this phase:

1: What to do with 100% avoidance
2: Damage volatility
3: Resource management

100% avoidance:

This is less a weakness and more of a game design challenge. I’m curious how Blizzard handles this, because IMO it won’t be very fun if we’re able to hit a point of sustained 100% avoidance and completely invalidate healers in melee situations. Maybe a hot take on my part.

Damage volatility:

Would you rather have a main tank that requires a decent amount of healing, but can reliably tank the boss if they play their class well? Or would you rather have a single target melee specialist that can get by with very little healing but also has a 2% chance of wiping to an unlucky thrash with no counterplay on their or the healer’s part?

Blizzard has addressed this problem in the past for avoidance tanks (see the Stagger ability for MoP brewmaster). I hope they implement something similar for rogues in later phases.

Resource management:

Other tank class resources (rage/mana) have built in mechanics that allow the tank’s threat output and ability usage to be flexible depending on the size of the pull.

Rage tanks generate extra rage from being attacked more often, and as a result can put out more damage/threat, which results in more rage.

Mana tanks can dump mana when needed, and each mana tanking spec has built in mechanics to allow them to regen mana more effectively while tanking (paladins regen when healed, shamans when blocking, locks get improved life tap).

In contrast, rogues are bottlenecked by their energy regen. Their threat output and flexibility to adapt to different situations is a steady state 20 energy/tick, regardless of what gets thrown at the party.

To make matters worse, they lose CP when changing targets, which otherwise is their only significant mechanism for improving energy efficiency. This will lead to inefficient energy consumption as they will presumably want to dump CP on a finisher before switching targets to maintain threat or to taunt/interrupt (which they will likely not have energy for if they just used a finisher before switching).

I don’t think it’s an issue if rogues have to work harder than other tanks to do the job well on larger pulls. I do think it’s unfun to have a resource system and a role that feel anti-synergistic though.

Less desirable options:

Some people have been suggesting that rogues need an AoE damage ability to handle larger pulls, but I dislike this because it deviates from the rogue playstyle of single target resource management, and also isn’t very fun IMO. It also doesn’t really fit the flavor of a dodging/parrying duelist to be throwing a fan of knives in each direction. I don’t want rogue tank to become TBC prot pally.

They could potentially address this by just slapping a major threat multiplier on rogues, allowing us to maintain threat by just auto attacking, but this also sounds like a major missed opportunity to me. “I mismanaged my combo points, and rarely had enough energy to use abilities, but I still maintained threat because I enabled tank mode” just won’t feel good at all IMO. I imagine people like to play rogue so they can use the tools they have to outplay the opponent, and this would feel like the opposite. A tank’s job is to maintain threat - don’t do that job for them.

My suggestion:

With their high single target damage, lack of AoE, and 1 second GCD, rogues could presumably excel at the tab target tanking style that other tanks employ prior to unlocking AoE abilities. I think this would be a fun and engaging niche for rogue tanks, if their resource management is adjusted to work with this style instead of against it.

As a start in this direction, I think they could address these issues with two changes to existing rogue tank runes that will better synergize the role with rogue resources. Right now, 2 out of 3 rogue tank runes exist just to help rogues survive being top of the threat meter and do nothing to help us stay there. Here are my suggested changes:

Blade dance

  • Make it a flat parry % and tie only the duration to combo points spent, like SnD (fixes the common issue where you can’t reapply because “a more powerful spell is active”)
  • “While the buff is active, you will retain up to 3 unspent combo points when switching targets”

Main gauche

  • None of the other rogue tanks I’ve talked with use Main gauche. The active mitigation is nice, but the threat and damage benefits offered by saber slash render this rune largely obsolete, even as a tank (until perhaps level 60 when you’re approaching avoidance cap)

  • Give it a threat or damage bonus (so it can be used as an opener, OH weapon damage hits like a wet noodle)

  • “While the buff is active, parrying any attack will generate 5 energy”

Just a Flesh Wound
Reduce the passive threat modifier if needed to balance the above changes.

14 Likes

Excellent points.

Also keep in mind that Rogue Tank’s biggest weakness will be getting stunned. If you are stunned, you cannot dodge or parry which I think means the Rogue is toast at that point so having a lot of stun breaks in the form of trinkets or abilities is even more crucial.

EDIT: As far as AOE goes Rogue will get Blade Flurry eventually, just not right now which I think will be good enough.

3 Likes

Reminds me of when I played Netherwing TBC and our warrior tank would just drop dead at absolutely random times. All three attacks are blocked, but still deals like 130% of his max health to him.

It didn’t seem to be an issue in Classic Vanilla, but I imagine Rogues might get instagibbed from thrash.

4 Likes

I rememeber this happened back in… maybe TBC? Some rogue managed to pull it off and I think bliz made diminishing changes because of that.

Great post btw. I’d just add that rogues may be too squishy to tank in heavy spell-damage fights, but I still don’t understand everything about the runes yet.

2 Likes

They will be squishier than most tanks when it comes to mitigating damage from casters (that can’t be kicked or affected by mind-numbing poison), but when it comes to melee magic damage (such as from elementals), I think they may have the best survivability out of any of the tanks.

This is excluding locks mitigating shadow damage of course.

2 Likes

Leaving a comment here to support these proposed changes. I want rogue tank to be enjoyable.

1 Like

I love these points and I like these solutions, very simple and clean! I hope they have something great cooking about this type of rogue tank fantasy. I see the rogue tank either going deep combat or deep sub. I would prefer for the latter though because Combat is going to already be very popular for sword dps, utilizing talents like Prem, Prep and Setup being very nice. Cloak of shadows being a similar sub oriented class ability (hopefully on a cloak rune). I also saw another post about someone wanting a mobile, stealthy ninja type of rogue dps from the sub spec here:

I’m going to paste some of my ideas here from a different forum post. I think there could be some overlap between these 2 ideas. Anyways here they are.

Rogue

  • AoE taunt Rune (4 seconds, 15-30 second CD) Increases your dodge chance after using this ability. Also permanently adds a passive: Every time you dodge, you auto attack that enemy for 50% of your weapon damage with increased threat.
  • Sub dps focus/tank rune - AoE bleed damaging ability with an instant strike. Bleed scales to mobs HP, doing more damage when the enemy is at higher health. (to avoid fan of knives spam)
  • Crimson Vial rune - Allows the rogue to create a crimson vial with 3 charges, soulbound. Drinking crimson vial will increase the rogue’s healing received and reduce damage taken the next time they lose control of their character (stun, fear, cc)
  • After parrying an attack increases your chance to deflect (parry animation) an enemy’s attack for 30% less damage.

Other runes for flavor, throw dirt (reduce mob chance to hit), smoke bomb (allowing re-enter stealth or aoe taunt). Maybe another bleed dot, bleed debuff to help allies or improving hemo. More timing/skill abilities for tanking to have a sekiro/dark souls form of tanking like a 10 sec cd ability to 100% parry the next attack within 1.5 second and reduce bosses damage to you. Focus on increasing parry against single target/bosses, increase dodge against many enemies, and counterattack during avoidance instead of just passive avoidance buffs to be at 100% avoidance never taking damage. I’d like to see sub dps become viable focusing on stealth, hemo/bleeds, mobility.

Edit: One more rune. A rune to remove energy costs on all finishing moves. I think this would make gameplay feel more fun.

3 Likes

Main Gauche
“While the buff is active, parrying any attack will generate X energy”

Blade Dance
“While the buff is active, you will retain up to 3CP when switching targets. They must be spent within X seconds of leaving the initial target or they will be lost.”

These are both awesome suggestions, we defo need some energy regen as tanking

3 Likes

Agreed - just burnt so much gold to get it working and only to find out how bad it is. Please implement at least some of the proposed changes.

1 Like

It kind of seems tank rogues are being pushed more into swords/maces/fist weapons with Main Gauche being affected by SS talents (not that you can’t SS with daggers). I hope it doesn’t really matter what tank weapon a rogue uses, though I know some tanking swords would have very beneficial stats. I also like the idea of a rogue tanking using two daggers to parry (Shangri-La Frontier). It’s unique

We’ll have to see what they end up doing with later runes.

If you wanted to get real into the weeds, maces are the most inherently defensive weapon type of the three, just because the lower attack speed will result in less parry haste on your target. This kind of difference is likely so small as to not matter though.

Edit: as a side note, slower weapons will better synergize with parry haste on yourself, and with abilities like riposte. You’re probably also not doing much backstabbing as a tank. I would guess just based on those factors that maces (and swords depending on the drop) will be the best choice for rogue tanks in a lot of scenarios.

1 Like

This already happened as part of the druid’s tanking design at some point in his history, either he was too strong or he was useless because he took too much damage, some of the things that helped mitigate this were the introduction of regeneration, armor based mastery and then based on improving healing, among other things. It remains to be seen how Rogue tank will progress in the following phases and with more runes, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see a rune with some version of Crimson Vial

1 Like

This would be a reasonable fix in my opinion. I am not a game designer but I would bet it would be done by blizz(or atleast something similar)

1 Like