i feel like every other class have multiple abilities that bump their health up ALOT(multiple times) and us rogues only have feint and our vial. so why have they made it so that all classes an burst as hard as rogue sometime harder…stun as muh as rogue and then be able to survive longer than rogue with magic sheild abilities and heals. which us rogues lack and we dont make up for it with more dmg than classes with all that utility.
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This is a problem thats exclusive to PvP. That alone should hopefully answer half your questions despite still being wrong.
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You gotta specify pvp or pve
Cause pve rogue is a very tanky spec
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Not many people play Rogue even in PVE either so the OP has a point.
i pvp a bit and most of the time i open on a target and if i dont have my trinket i die in one stun and im in pretty much full conquest with my pvp set it just seems like rogues got left behind
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What are you talking about
The OP is telling us the truth.
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PvE survivability is insane.
PvP surviability is also very good. There’s a reason outlaw is rarely the focus target and have among the lowest first blood of all classes.
If that was true Outlaw would be played more in PVP and PVE. Sub and Assassination are more popular than Outlaw not only because how they deliver damage but also what they can do with their tools.
Sub and Assassination having access to Shadow Step and it is hard to overcome as shadow step is very important as a utility tool to avoid danger. I have seen four grapple hooks fail four times in a row before.
In a grander picture right now Ret, DK and Warriors are played more by the player base as they are perceived to be more tanky than Rogues which is true. Rogues are a leather wearing class but they no longer have more cheats with their defensives than other classes which is why Rogue population will continue to plummet.
Outlaw rogue is tankier than a lot of plate specs, the only thing tankier than rogue is dk
But again you don’t play outlaw or it’s tanky talents for some reason
Rogue population is stagnant for multiple reasons but def not “defensively weak”
- Feint is powerful and useful but requires timing.
- Dismantle + gouge are solid tools.
- well timed blind with blackjack is strong
- Smokebomb is offensive and defensive
- Recuperator is impactful without hijacking the kit which would result in nerfs (good as is)
- Ironstomach is a solid upgrade and supplements Recuperate well.
- Soothing Darkness is solid.
These are only from class tree as some examples but is not an exhaustive list.
Timing and precision are key to survivability regardless of any class or spec. All of us are tuned around each other as a fair series of checks and balances.
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Feint isn’t that powerful if requires two charges.
Dismantle is a solid tool but is a PVP talent which means it is an opportunity cost and you have to forgo another talent.
Blind with blackjack debuff isn’t strong like it used to be because Blind has a shorter duration now.
Smokebomb is a 3 minute CD when the rest of the game has moved on with shorter CDs under 3 minutes now.
Recuperator is still bugged since Systemlands.
Iron Stomach isn’t as strong as it used to be because of the existence of Recuperator.
Soothing Darkness was nerfed from DF into TWW and it isn’t as strong as it used to be.
The OP is very mature and has valid points. And it is also very important to be mature and honest about how Rogues took a step back in TWW compared to DF.
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People are honest and mature here.
Feint is solid
- either take preemptive maneuver and time things for 60% dr + whatever else you slot into while stunned OR take normal elusiveness and mitigate 20% of all + 40% AOE. Everyone and their mammy deals aoe in some form. It is a necessary rogue tool and thank the Lord we do have it. Its not supposed to be a ridiculous ability. It is good with or without PM though.
- bait and switch is additive
- A well timed vial in the middle of pre feinting is good. Pre vial to incoming damage as a shaman is loading up something while you are rooted and no dispels or personal cds and hitting feint high is wise and a tactical decision.
Recuperate isnt bugged
- for every 3s of freshly applied SnD , we get 1% mhp. Each time cttc adds time it gives exactly that. It isn’t intended to be a permanent 1% per 3s buff like old days.
Blackjack is solid.
- 30% redux to damage and healing for its duration is really solid. Especially if someone has 5 stacks of wound poison to reduce healing received for 24%.
- that means the targets own healing is reduced base while being able to receive less healing from that reduction. Increasing that would be ridiculously strong.
Iron stomach
- is in line with other classes and factoring in leeching poison while cleaving to steady drip healing is also in line with other classes which is fair and balanced. They arent going to allow legion style DH leech nonsense to ever exist again for any class. It is meant to be supplemental.
Dismantle
- is still a staple, the whole point of pvp talents is to pick and everything comes at a cost as a decision to make. Stopping zug and buying time for healers, team mates, ourselves is a good thing. We aren’t going to open a can of worms with what isn’t fully affected by dismantle as a tangent though. Other classes do cool stuff and we do ours - no big deal.
Smokebomb
- still very useful, yes other classes gained stuff and that is good for them. The concerns of it having counterplay or a longer cd is because it is meant to be an important decision making tool. A shorter cd would come at a tuning cost, ignoring that is a fool’s gambit.
Im not going to dig into an argument here because this is definitely where the conversations head lately and that isn’t wise or constructive.
Our tools aren’t outdated, no we don’t need special advantages, no our stuff doesn’t suck, other classes gained stuff just like us - its healthy for all and we have a high amount of situational awareness as a requirement. No big deal. We adapt and plan accordingly instead of pointing fingers and nagging to drive away the devs.
Id like to add that its actually a joke of a talent and should never have been made one if they were going to gut it the way they have over the years after the SL conduit.
1% every 3 seconds. Crimson Vial literally has better health regeneration if you use it once a minute. Recuperate is functionally useless.
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I hear you Xae. It is just how the cards fell for balance reasons. If it were stronger then something else would be reduced. It would come at the cost of a DR or something else for sure. Im glad for the tools we do have and any small tricks that add up when we zoom out.
The good thing is each spec has different tools that compliment things like this to be impactful as a sum.
SL didnt have all the options we do now so of course it was stronger then my rogue. The devs split things up to prevent a talent being mandatory and so each spec still benefits while having their own pieces of the kit for mitigation and survivability.
Im still appreciative of recuperator and stuff like iron stomach as options. Hope to do pve again in the future, im just really busy currently.
Side note: If you’re raiding and doing keystones, I do hope you’re having fun. The current raid looks cool and I am interested to see how the Prey / Hunt mechanic plays out in midnight. Hopefully more intel soon.
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except it hasnt, you are just wrong
Using another CD to prop up Feint isn’t a convincing argument. Using a Vial and Feint together isn’t any different than using CloS (with damage reduction glyph) and Recuperate. Rogues have stayed the same and it isn’t really an improvement while the rest of the game has moved on. Lets continue.
Not only is watered down since it was introduced there is a total healing budget you are not taking into account. BlizZard must tune down Recuperator because it now shares a total healing budget because of talents that exist like Shadowheart. Similar reason why having multiple energy talents means that individually they have to be watered down for balance reasons the off chance people make a build using all the energy talents. Or, in this case all the healing talents.
And yes, Recuperator will still bug out and also the drawback with SND being made semi passive is you have less control of when Recuperator is put up now so that is a downgrade of Recuperator. The trade off is that SND is mostly passive but it comes at an opportunity cost which is less viability of Recuperator.
Blackjack isn’t as solid when you factor in that only one spec can leverage it more frequently outside of stealth windows aka Outlaw Blind. In fact with the nerfs to Blind and Sap durations Blackjack duration has to be increased to be worthwhile.
Iron Stomach as a talent was devalued as all personal DPS healing was nerfed coming into TWW from DF. Factor in that all healing/healing augmentation talents share a total global budget and it is further devalued.
Dismantle being solid PVP talent choice is not the primary issue. Primary issue is that it is one of the few good PVP talents left and that is a problem when it becomes near mandatory to pick up. When Rogues had better survivability Dismantle was an optional talent and that is how it should be and not near mandatory IMVHO.
Given the state of the game a 3 minute CD is too high of an opportunity cost. Other classes and specs can offer area denial at lower CDs.
No, that is how the Rogue class improves with open and honest dialogue that is mature. Any efforts to shut down open, honest and civil dialogue will be seen as not a good measure but one to hinder the chance Rogues are brought up into the modern game.
No one said Rogue tools suck, and yes other classes should gain tools for parity and balance. But Rogues are one of the few melee leather wearing DPS and they should have a few extra tricks up their sleeves compared to Rets, Warriors and DKs who are plate wearing.
That is the trade off and balance. Rogues do not have plate so they have to by default have a few extra tricks up their sleeves.
Right now the reason why Rogue population is further drifting downward is that Rogues lost of a lot their unique niches and competitive edges. You can have unique tools and still have total global balance for classes and specs.
Stick around and see what a mature and civil debate looks like. That is how Rogues improve with honest and open dialogue.
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I think that illustrates the issue. That’s a lot tools you need to survive. Many specs have just a few that provide much better survivablity.
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As long time Rogues we have a little bias as we have the ability to squeeze out performances due to our vast experience of the class.
But this thread illustrates the common community perception of Rogues.
I am okay with Rogues having to use many tools in the tool box for survivability as that is part of the Rogue core game play. The problem is that core Rogue survivability tools (eg CloS) have been weakned over time.
I know in that thread I posted that many non Rogue players cited poor healing but if Rogues core survival CDs were stronger they would not need to rely on personal healing so much.
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I believe the root cause of this is:
Over the years, Blizzard has lost site of one of the fundamental differences rogues have from other classes. Our survivability revolved on damage AVOIDANCE rather than damage MITIGATION, which is what other classes do.
Mitigation comes from various abilities that actually reduce or absorb incoming damage. These abilities have durations and cool downs that allow reasonable uptime without feeling spammy. Rogues have Feint, Evasion, Cloak of Shadows. All have short durations (5-6 seconds) with long cooldowns. And they require preemptive use to be effective. So, for a few seconds every couple of minutes, we get to mitigate damage.
Avoidance is a bit different. We reduced damage by NOT letting our enemy hit us. This was achieved in several ways. First, was “crowd control”. With various stuns, slows and incapacitates, we could limit the amount of attacks the enemy was able to execute. Second was burst damage. We had enough burst during these moments of cc to entirely eliminate an enemy or at least send them into panic mode. Third, we had dodge and parry as passive stats. These straight up reduced the enemy’s chance of landing an attack.
We were the proverbial “Glass Cannon”. It was a fun and rewarding play style. Blizzard has lost site of this and as Ghost Crawl once said, “When rogues are having fun, no one else is.”
Fastword to 2025. Rogues still have all the glass but way less cannon.
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