Well the balance reason they moved Rogue survivability away from avoidance to damage mitigation was due to adding personal healing in Cata IMO.
Rogue avoidance with healing would probably be hard to balance but as we see Ret and DH are dominating PVE and PVP because they can mitigate damage, avoid damage and have very good personal self healing.
DKs are more balanced as they can’t really avoid damage as much but they can heal and mitigate which is their core class fantasy.
I think the biggest thing that is happening right now is that Rogue damage in PVE and PVP is not that good out of stealth windows which ironically forces the specs to rely more on stealth windows to do average consistent damage. Stealth windows and using for extra DPS was a nice skill cap for higher advanced Rogues to leverage but it has become the core way to play Rogue for average DPS.
Nerfs to CC has had an impact on Rogues but I think that it wouldn’t matter if Rogues were able to do damage outside of stealth windows for PVE and PVP IMVHO. So yeah Rogues do not feel like a glass cannon right now and I think that contributes to these compounding issues.
no, youve been given way to many chances for a civil debate with multiple people. not just me. you never change your view and your arguments always change when your losing, you hold on to semantics and your own personal playstyle as the norm when its not.
its not worth having an actual debate with you anymore
True and I think what has also happened is that BlizZard is uncertain how to proceed with all three Rogues specs in TWW that contributes to this problem.
With DF they kind of had a direction they were going but with TWW it has been more like maintenance mode for Rogues and some bug fixes.
I do not think Rogue tool kit is terrible. It is solid with Vanish, Feint, CloS, Evasion, Blind, Sap, Sprint and Gouge. But the problem is that these are vanilla/TBC core spells and only really Feint has seen the most "improvement’ in the modern game. And that was during the MoP expansion (aka more than 10 years ago) when Feint (with Elusivness) talent was re-imagined. Evasion has seen some streamlined changes since its inception here and there. But Blind, Sap, Gouge, and CloS are pretty much the same or have taken nerfs to the point that yes DKs can compete with Rogues now in terms of parity of tools while still having plate and more HP.
So it is more accurate to say Rogue core tools have been watered down since their inception. If that is balance then why are Rets and Demon Hunters running around with similar tools Rogues have but also being significantly stronger? Why does a MM hunter do more burst than even a Sub Rogue from max range via stealth? Why does the Rogue talent that offer AoE blind is so inferior than Rets version?
There is a reason why the devs added a second charge to Feint and reduced the CD of Sprint. Rogues were falling behind not only relative to other leather wearing melee DPS like Havoc and WW Monk but also all melee in general.
To be honest right now the big flaw with Rogues is that they do not do much damage out of stealth windows. While we can talent for it and build around that paradigm there are still too many roadblocks towards that alternative choice. Healing not being high is a non issue if Rogue core tools actually function properly and Rogues are able to do damage outside of stealth windows. That is why Rogue zenith of game play is often cited to be between Cata, MoP and WoD. WotLK and Legion are cited too but the specs were more focused on niches and they didn’t last as long. BFA was probably the closest we saw of the Cata, MoP and WoD era of Rogue game play.
Systemlands went in a obscure direction and DF and TWW are just uncharted territories at the moment.
For example, outlaw and assa just have ONE build that works, if you try another talent build you are trolling. The disrespect of blizzard regarding rogues is stupid.
And yes, retry, dks and dh have a lot of ways to do damage, they don’t rely on thing like being stealth and also have much less cd in their abilities. It is not fair. Rogues still can delete someone but that person needs to not use any defensives and healings
I think the bigger issue is that Rogues have restricted pathways in talent tree too that causes problems. Not only for different builds, dealing damage out of stealth windows, but also utility. For example Sub has some cool utility but it is in a bad spot in the tree. Similar problem with Outlaw too.
In PvP, not really. Sin relies on bleeds, because poisons are so nerfed and need uptime that arenas don’t allow to deal actual damage. Sudden Demise is just too good not to take, and if you pick it, you also have to choose all the talents that boost bleeds. Also, you ALWAYS need to make good use of Subterfuge to deal decent damage, which doesn’t allow you to pick Supercharge (for example) and limits the use of Coldblood.
I was refering to the need to use subterfuge and double vanish offensively actually. With outlaw I miss a lot Curse of the dreadblades, I don’t enjoy at all the ambush gameplay of today.
And I just read about this:
It’s like a joke.
You see the Retribution tree, which was obviously redesigned multiple times, so they can opt for any build they want, and any of them will be decent at least. Also, all of the builds can get all the final talents of their tree without much sacrifice. They can get the upgrades from Wake of Ashes, Divine Arbiter, Burning Crusade, and Final Reckoning—all quite powerful.
I’m not asking for Rogues to deal damage effortlessly, but they should have clear strengths. Cloak of shadows should go back to a 1mCD, and cheat death should be baseline for the class. Also, the leech efects shouldn’t be nerfed by half in PvP.
It’s also a joke that Kidney Shot has the same cooldown as Hammer of Justice, yet with more requirements. The Rogue has been left behind while other classes gained strengths they didn’t have before and got buffed to the ceiling. Classes that tank, burst, have sustained damage, CC, and support—this just doesn’t make sense. Obviously the Rogue can win, but it takes way more effort to achieve almost the same as other classes.
A lot of Rogue design has a lot of unneeded restrictions that do not exist for other classes and specs. Fundamentally that is why Rogues have fallen behind in multiple areas. The lack of momentum from DF into TWW to address these issues is why Rogue population declines. And the bug that impact Rogue game play too. A good example of this is that ever since vanish was changed to 1.5 second immunity it is failing more frequently in PVE and PVP.
There are some supercharger builds for assassins using the poison focused part of the tree with dtb and such. (6m envenoms) just doesn’t look pretty because of people thinking meter maid metrics are what matters. Methodical hard striking and precision envenoms vs everyone ticking over time and complaining “we do no direct damage” while ignoring things and spreading nonsense.
Fatebound kingsbanes are used for cold blood and do smoke people badly due to tier.
Outlaw does have quite a few builds as well. All talents do well. Supercharger builds for 7m+ killingsprees and stuff do exist.
The devs due keep an eye and tune with all things in mind. The gremlins just copy each other instead of making their own styles work and experimentation.
It’s not that everyone is just copying each other—it’s that it’s extremely hard to get any value out of another build in arena right now because of how many limitations Rogue has. Do you honestly think it’s viable to precisely calculate combo point usage just to maybe land a hit that does mediocre damage, while the rest of the time you’re doing nothing? Because that would mean skipping the bleed talents. And not taking Sudden Demise is already trolling—it’s just too good. This isn’t about copying others.
Dragon-Tempered Blades sees no play because spamming Envenom in arena just isn’t viable; base Envenom simply doesn’t hit hard enough, and Deadly Poison damage is pathetic. Back in the day, Deadly Poison also applied Wound Poison, but that’s not even the case anymore. You can try a kind of Subtlety-style gameplay, but that’s all it is—an imitation. Deathmark doesn’t even support that playstyle, for example. Mutilate doesn’t hit hard anymore; it basically just exists to generate combo points.
They gave us 300 energy and 6 combo points, and yet Rogue feels weaker than ever. To me, that’s a failure on the developers’ part—sorry. Also we can forget about the lame hero specs we got, the worst of all classes by far.
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Imagine Outlaw using SEVEN combo point finishers that are also super charged and still tickling targets via Dispatch. Something is seriously wrong with this picture. And it is even worse in PVE…you look at your damage meters and wonder what is going on with all the button mashing for above average results.
It’s worth pointing out that even in the popular bleed-focused builds, finishers are still doing a lot of the work.
• When you apply Rupture or Crimson Tempest in a Deathstalker build, they aren’t just bleeds — they also consume a Mark for an ~800k–1.2m Plague hit instantly (and of course this applies to Envenom as well).
• In a Fatebound build, those same finishers flip a coin, which can mean another ~1.5–2m Cosmic hit (up to ~2.6m with Delivered Doom) or ramped damage if it’s a Heads streak.
• On top of that, Envenoms average 1.5–2m in PvP even in bleed-focused builds, and are echoed for another ~30%. With coin flips and Cold Blood, crit windows climb much higher (8–9m bursts). The big 6m Envenoms people sometimes screenshot come specifically from DS + Forced Induction + poison amps — worth clarifying for fairness.
So even in bleed setups, finishers are central: they trigger Mark damage in Deathstalker, flip coins in Fatebound, and close games in both cases. Bleeds create strong sustained pressure, but finishers remain the actual kill condition. That’s why both playstyles exist — bleeds for steady rot, finishers for burst kills — and neither is irrelevant.
The layered effects here are deliberate design. They prevent Blizzard from relying on one drastic tuning knob, encourage planning and decision-making, and deter zugging. Direct rogue finishers aren’t weak — the hero talents were built to make all choices viable for different rogue playstyles. The same applies to generators across all specs, but that’s a deeper dive for another time.
Note: by seeing Outlaw reports via screenshots and discussions observed as well as fighting them.
Outlaw’s finishers aren’t “tickling” — the damage engine is built around layering. With Crackshot, every vanish or Subterfuge gives you a no-CD BTE (~1.5m) plus a free Dispatch (~600–800k). Add a Fatebound coin flip (~1.5–2m, higher with Delivered Doom) and you’re already ~3–4m pressure in a single window. (Requires paying attention but tier and fb talents allow cool interactions).
You can also prime Supercharger via Roll the Bones (Forced Induction) from stealth, so your next finisher counts as 10 CP before you even break stealth. Chaining that with Ghostly Strike (+15% dmg, off-GCD) into Subterfuge (6s when fully talented) lets you fire multiple
BTE/Dispatch/coin sequences while Adrenaline Rush is frozen by Underhanded Upper Hand. Ace Up Your Sleeve frequently refunds 5 CP, so it’s common to get an extra BTE/Dispatch inside that same window.
this isn’t once every two minutes: Restless Blades shaves cooldowns across the board — Vanish, Roll the Bones, Ghostly Strike, Sprint, Evasion, Adrenaline Rush — so Crackshot kill chains happen on ~1:15–1:30 cycles, not just one big setup. Even Killing Spree is meaningful: at 7 CP it deals ~7m when fully channeled, can Blade Flurry cleave, procs coins, and restores CP during the channel to flow right back into finishers. That’s not empty damage, it’s a real kill swing layered into the cadence.
The layered effects here are deliberate design. If finishers were tuned to be single giant nukes, every other part of the kit would get cut down to compensate. By spreading power across marks, coins, echoes, resets, and synergies, rogues keep both impactful finishers and the full toolkit — Cheap Shot, Sap, Gouge (free with Dirty Tricks), sustained AR uptime, and layered control.
Yes, rogues still need uptime and can be shut down — that’s healthy counterplay. But when allowed to play, this design delivers consistent kill pressure while preserving rogue identity.
That’s the whole point… Layered effects were added while Rogues were already almost perfect in their design since Vanilla. They’ve had everything they ever needed from the start. So when Blizzard adds something like Hero Specs, they have to cut from the basic toolkit—otherwise the class would be broken. Fair enough. I know that every time you cast a finisher you flip a coin and consume a stack of DM.
I brought up the build issues because the class feels abandoned in several ways. They made Subterfuge mandatory when they removed Shadow Dance, and that’s something a lot of people have been complaining about. If you play Outlaw, you have to play with Ambush, no exceptions—and I personally don’t enjoy that. I miss Legion Outlaw, for example. The Hero Specs also feel like very low-effort additions; they don’t feel epic like they do for other classes.
Would you really go out of your way to defend that those builds you mention are just as competitive—or at least close—to the one everyone is running? Because honestly, I see every Assa Rogue playing the same, every Outlaw Rogue playing the same. I won’t comment on Subtlety since I haven’t touched it since Legion, but with my shaman I have different ways to play it, and I can choose my favorite, even in combination with the hero talents.
And finally, I could accept all of that, but this topic is about survivability—and right now Rogue is in a very bad spot there. We’re the only class that has to use a defensive/utility spell like Vanish as a damage cooldown AND ALSO it is nerfed to the ground! We can’t even escape using it!
Finally this is my suggestion:
I’m not asking for Rogues to deal damage effortlessly, but they should have clear strengths. Cloak of shadows should go back to a 1mCD, and cheat death should be baseline for the class. Also, the leech efects shouldn’t be nerfed by half in PvP.
BTE has PVP modifiers which is why it can not do as much damage anymore.
Again BTE has modifiers in PVP which is why it isn’t doing the damage it was doing in DF compared to now in TWW.
First of all no one is saying finishers should be “nukes”. What people are pointing out is that finishers with super charged CPs should actually hit hard.
To really test this out make a build using five CPs finishers and it becomes quite apparent that Rogue finishers are under tuned especially compared to other melee and their “finishers” As a result Rogues need to use 6-7 CP builds to do the similar damage with finishers as they used to do with 5 CP builds pre Legion. Fundamentally this is a big problem if we examine that Rogue auto attacks were still a big part of Rogue damage pre Legion but 4- 5 CP finishers felt impactful and actually worthwhile using. Even with the increased CP generation now and frequency of 6-7 CP finishers Rogue finishers are watered down from what Rogues were capable of with 5 CP finishers.
The rest of the game has moved on with how Rets, Havoc DH, and Warriors play. Rogues can be shut down by roots and not so much for other melee. Why? Because Vanish was originally the go to for root breaks and CloS was half the CD. With the proliferation of ranged damage going from 30 yards to 40 yards in systemlands we see a growing disparity. That is why Vanish was given a shield to it and the CloS PVP talent came into existence as it was no accident because Rogues needed tools to compete for the modern game. But those are no more realistically and vanish immunity is now 1.5 seconds. For PVE the heavy use of vanish opens up other cans of worms too.
Rogue survivability always hinged on doing more damage and using defensives. Heals is a side benefit but right now Rogues are deficient in key areas that should matter for a pure melee leather wearing DPS.
