We need balancing - we are bottom-middle DPS and bring no Utility or cleave/AOE. No one wants us in any kind of group content. This is not about being the best or " keeping the spirit of Classic", we just want to be viable. This isnt Classic, SoD has changed but we haven´t.
For Runes, Honor Among Thieves will probably be run in PVE 100% of the time.
Cut to the Chase looks like PVE BiS for DPS, justifies keeping Slide and Dice up instead of just Envenom. Kinda unsure about Tanks. This helps sustained DPS in Raid without giving us burst. That is good.
There are, however, things that can be improved…
Cleave/AOE for dungeons and questing. All classes but us do it, as Tanks we are the worst with 2+ targets. Redirect help us tab targeting 1/10 of the times and it is clunky. Give us an AOE finisher or something, anything, please
Raid Utility - we dont have any! Everything resists our CC. Easy solution would be to buff Expose Armor, with all the energy and combo points we will have this is an easy solution.
PVP tools for Rogue Tanks - all other Tanks have a niche in PVP. We exchange damage for nothing if we try to tank. Magic DPS still CC us and burst us faster than we can burst someone. Even as DPS, with all recently added tools we are screwed in BGs and STV. Give Tanks a Hook/Pull like DKs deathgrip and some Break-CC tools and we are suddendly relevant in PVP as Tanks.
If we are getting NOTHING of the above, we need high enough sustained single target DPS to not be eclipsed by everyone else.
Maybe Cut to The Chase and Honor Among Thieves make a big difference once we get rolling in longer fights. But without any of the 4 points above, this is P2 all over again. No one will invite us to any content. Even Warriors and Pallies, while also behind, get invited to content.
There are still 2 (4 if not follwing leaks) Runes to be shown, talent books and balancing… please Blizz, we just want to be viable.
Oh, Cut to the Chase is going to be GAME CHANGING for rogue tanks. Pop a 1 point Blade Dance, then 1 point Slice N Dice, then just spam Eviscerates. So much more energy and combo points can go towards keeping aggro and damage up rather than just worrying about reapplying BD and SnD.
Honestly its hard to tell where we will be in phase 3, It feels like the meta will be to stack 2 rogues in the same group with super fast daggers, and have them feed each other combo points with HaT while pressing Mutilate → Finisher → Mutilate → Finisher, which will be insanely broken, with relentless strikes giving back 25 energy every finisher, we might not even need adrenaline rush.
Oh, I’m going back to using Ghostly Strike and Main Gauche. With having the ability to basically spam Eviscerates to keep up tps, I’ll go back to keeping my damage mitigation at insane levels. Letting healers have more breathing room to maybe help dps.
I think you might be underestimating the damage nerf to rogues that Gnomer’s built in 30% reduction to physical, poisons, and bleeds has on rogue dps. I equally think you are underestimating how much damage constantly being stacked at 5 combo points will add along with the additional damage from being able to gain 30% more crit chance from talents. “Get going” on any boss fight is literally 2 mutilates, snd, 2 mutilates, envenom. Not having to refresh SnD adds a significant amount of damage. Getting free combo points adds a significant amount of uptime for Envenom with less energy consumption (and since I assume Mutilate will be moving back to 60 energy in P3, that’s going to be required).
I guess I feel like this is a lot of sky is falling stuff for raiding.
All that said, the rogue runes have felt like very little effort was given to create them and the class as a whole doesn’t feel nearly as interesting as what they have done with other classes. At this point I just assume no one on the dev team actually mains a rogue #sigh.
Not underestimating the damage difference on Gnomer and the new Runes… it´s hard to quantify how we will do compared to other classes, which are also getting new Tools.
I understand we will be “swimming” in Combo Points. It remains to be seen if we will have high enough DPS compared to be desirable - if we dont get anything else. Which is just the general situation: if we provide DPS alone in Raids it has to be higher than others - but with some utility provided this stops being so strict.
By “get going” I just meant fights above 2 min. 1 Muti, 1 SnD, 2 Muti, 1 Envenom takes a bit of time and energy regenerated to achieve. If Enchanced Expose Armor becomes relevant then it is also more time on our initial set up. Trash Mobs usually die before I can even cash in my Combo Points. Using Redirect I just find myself hitting another mob for it to die before I can cash out -again- because everyone else is just cleaving/aoeing.
It feels like the dev team doesnt want to spend as much time with Rogues… maybe they see the class not played much, so they dont spend as much time developing it, so its played less… who knows. P2 was miserable at least.
With HAT as the primarily BiS pve rune undisputed for tank rogues, it really depends on whether or not there are other runes that would serve a tank’s purpose better than Cut to the Chase. Until we see all the runes, it’s unlikely that these two options will be changed.
For threat, tanks do run Envenom unless the bosses chunk (like Menagerie does), so the only useful uptime of S&D would be what CttC would serve as. If other runes are better, it’ll be replaced.
EDIT: Just make Shuriken Toss useful in some way, shape or form. Extra threat, apply poisons, uncap it. Something to make it worth using.
Depends on the CD on HaT, that sounds nice though.
Would make 2 Rogues per group viable, one could even Tank. From my experience in Retail, HaT almost always procs on CD. I wonder how it will work here.
HAT - is bonkers, what are you talking about. We will have to see the internal cooldown, however it will be nuts. even in short fights. Rogue tanks dont need PVP tools… DPS will be fine as boss’s do not have the same armor value as they are not mechanical. They dont need to be top just top 5/6 and they are fine as they will be. I am debating maining my rogue again because of these changes. If they increase threat gen for tank rogues they will be good to go
im unsure of if cut to the chase will be dps BiS depends on what the other unknown options are (still 2 runes undatamined) as its only technically adding an extra envenom every so often. could see combat swords being the meta again with access to thrash blade. As to buff rogue dps i think it will be dependent on the armor values in ST.
cut will definitely make playing tank more bearable
kinda still hoping for one of the unknown runes to buff hemo. a 0/10/21 hemo tank build would be interesting.
Just wait for P3 before asking for buffs. There are a few major reasons rogues suffered in gnomer.
Almost every boss had extremely high armor and poison resistance. I’m just happy they werent immune to poisons like mechs usually are, but when our entire damage profile is resisted to a high degree, naturally we do less damage than other classes.
We didn’t get any dps in P2. This speaks for itself. While we did get some nice utility with redirect and shadowstep, it was tank rogue that got useful runes in P2. Dps rogues got nothing except a 10% damage buff for 6 seconds after breaking stealth which is laughably weak for a rune. Other classes all got big damage abilities that helped propel them to the top.
Honestly, phase 2 didn’t even do a lot for rogue tanks either. RwtP is the only useful rune for tanks, although it looks like it more sets them up to be better come level 50 and 60. The waist slot is useless, Shuriken toss has a niche use (Grubbis adds to the clouds), and is almost entirely useless otherwise.
The only other class that got kind of awful runes phase 2 would be Warriors, who still crank out damage due to their absurd scaling with phase 1 runes, just because of how the class is built. Rogues were definitely left in the dust and have become the forgotten child of Classic.
Like I said, wait for P3 before calling out that the sky is falling. I had no inclinations that rogue would be as strong in gnomer as they were in BFD purely because of the armor and resistances.
Things will get better in P3 and so long as we dont retain our current relative position among dps then changes will not be needed.
I’m not calling for the sky falling, I’m simply skeptical of the future of rogues based on previous content. The real issue I find is that, especially compared to other classes, they continue to get more and more tools that will be exponentially (even slightly) scaling their classes as more runes are added in the future. Such as the example of Shamans getting Maelstrom Weapon and now with the new AP to SP conversion rune.
In this note, Rogues don’t have nearly as much exponential scaling as other classes. Phase 2 runes are lackluster, and didn’t add to the power of the class fantasy in PvE content. Rogues will now be an entire phase behind in PvE content unless they get something absurdly powerful with the last two datamined runes, which is something I hope happens for the longevity of the class.
Once the runes drop, I’ll scream about the sky. As of now, I remain skeptical.
I just think it is too early to say any of this. I am not even positive HAT is going to be the best option depending on whether the other two energy regenerating runes are real and whether Mutilate energy cost changes. I DO know that Rogues aren’t that far behind for DPS right now if they aren’t getting hammered by a 30% reduction in everything they do to generate damage.
I also don’t think there are devs playing the rogue in any meaningful way. There really hasn’t been anything that makes the rogue feel like it has gotten much of a fresh perspective. It very much feels like they rehashed abilities in other versions and slapped together a tanking spec.
How can you say this? You have no clue. Other classes are getting runes too, you know.
The point is without utility we are always chasing the top of the meter. It looks like Blizzard might agree, as they’ve added some new utility poisons, but may not be available until 60.
