A lot of these changes seem good. My main issue is still hero talents being bland across the specs.
2 Likes
they really are, hero talents should feel more exciting than the ones we got.
If anything at least, repeating for good measure, hoping the the Supercharge mechanics WILL work with deathstalker now. Eh? EH!?
2 Likes
Please rework Fatebound to a cursed ghost pirate/dreadblades fantasy with a ghost Dreadwake ship dropping cannonfire barrages, etc.
You can then tailor trickster for people more into a brawler and les pirate theme.
Rogues deserve visual spectacle and fantasy just as much as other classes.
8 Likes
Calling for perfect play in response to people complaining about an ability getting a passive added that would essentially just double down on whatever mistake was made is kinda tone deaf. We supposed to fight bosses here not our own class mechanics.
2 Likes
Guess what, we have a variety of opinions in the thread and thatâs ok, I didnât do this thread to make sure everyone agreed with me, but to get us visibility with the devs.
State your opinion, let others state theirs, discuss, but lets not dismiss people on debatable stuff.
Keep it coming yâall, the bigger this thread gets the more visible I hope itâll be. Feedback is important, letâs give it our all.
And reminder to make sure supercharge works with Dearhstalker 
2 Likes
actually, i think shiv would be a better skill here. They want it to be somewhat restricting and you do still want to have it applied. . . the other has dance at 30s or so. so this would align with that but I do agree it needs some other means of application. and shiv is something you use in burst, mini burst, and has 2 charges while not being essentially a free application. still need some thought behind it.
Iâll also mirror that, thistle tea needs not be a forced cast without opting into it. there are several isntances where youâll set up a pool by dumping energy into applying maintance dots. both on sub and on assassiantion. and then chill there letting energy fill up before going into your burst window. . . even at the 30 breakpoint that was added instead of 50 thatâs going to be an issue. Iâd rather not need a WA putting a bar on my enery to say when I cannot use skills. . . if iâm at like 80 energy? canât use a skill that would cost 50. thatâs pretty detrimental.
2 Likes
- Thistle tea auto proc change is bad as long as it has a tied mastery component that needs to be reserved for our burst windows
- Noone wants to micro manage energy in this way.
2) Removal of CDR from sub requires sweeping changes to rebalance
- Additional charges of symbols should just be baseline and a new talent created in its place
- Arguably symbols itself is completely linear borderline maintenance buff that could be baked into dance which it functionally is for the most part (much wider topic)
- Vanish and stealth bugs are unacceptable in the live iteration of the game. Should be hotfixed asap.
- Root cause identified, safeguards put in place that the issue doesnât keep happening and getting worse over time as experienced this xpac
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Removal of self heals is a bad change. No reason to move the heal into vanish. Drastically reduces in combat staying power.
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Hero talent bugs are still a thing. Darkest night bugs, tooltip bugs etc
2 Likes
This plus making sure deathstalkerâs mark is easier to apply, and I personally think assassination will be in a very good spot. Are there other changes? Of course. I still think carnage shouldnât require stealth. However, the proposed changes (minus tea change) with the deathstalker fixes would be amazing. The subterfuge/without a trace line went from completely useless to interesting with the master assassin being extended. The ER changes make that section way more straightforward. It is also interesting with the twist the knife changes.
Hopefully the fact that deathstalker has not been touched yet means they are working on plugging things in with the supercharge, and making the mark not so restrictive in application.
2 Likes
Thereâs still been no fixes to the main issues that currently plague Outlaw. BTEâs constantly bugging out during normal gameplay and grapple hook going on full CD if it doesnât connect with anything even with 2 charges. Trickster is still very buggy, Killing Spree is still bugged where it doesnât go past 1 target even in AOE sometimes and Fatebound is still the most lackluster boring hero talent in the game.
6 Likes
There hasnât been any real fixes to the whole class and there wonât be they are working on things that barely matter rather than the actual problems. Because really fixing the class would take real amounts of work and if beta showed us anything itâs that they arenât doing that.
The the changes that are happening are just happening to make it look like they are doing something when they arenât really fixing anything overall.
An easy example at this point you should just delete snd again but the less work way is what they did.
5 Likes
I am just baffled how can you balance without fixing bugged abilities first.
That should be top priority not adding tiny nuances to Thistle Tea or CP super micro management with the new talent induction. SnD is basically a passive but I warned people that focusing on trivial issues like this would suck the wind out of the focus on bigger issues with the class. That is exactly what has happened! But no point in crying about that now! It is what it is!
At some point the core kit needs to be fixed and addressed for all three specs. Why should I care about the new Echoing Reprimand?
The new Echoing Reprimand on the PTR is boring and non impactful. Why do I care about extra physical damage after using a combo point builder? How does that change game play? Outlaw has that already it is called MG and it is tuned too low like the new ER on the PTR.
At least the Shadow lands version of ER bypassed armor because it wasnât physical damage. The late DF version was physical damage but it was tuned a lot higher as a trade off.
The new Thistle Tea is a passive that doesnât really go off when you want it but goes off when you donât want it going off aka blowing your CDs.
Only time I really noticed the new Thistle Tea passive going off when I wanted it to was spamming combo point builders and feint in between. But at that point I can just hit a button press of a Thistle Tea charge instead of trying to game the passive energy threshold of 30e.
Is this passive of Thistle Tea designed for newer players that donât know how to manage energy or line up CDs? Maybe, but at the same time it seems counter productive because mastery is tied to it and that can be punishing to new/inexperienced players to the class.
So far from the PTR from what I have seen is that because of SND being a passive that Outlaw can focus more on BTE. But that puts more of a focus on noticing the various bugs of BTE so we are back to square one on this main issue.
Kspree is actually easy to fix by increasing the range to hit outside of the edge of a hitbox instead of dead center. And landing after a Kspree should go back to the old version of being behind a target and not back to your original position.
Invigorating Shadowdust could use a reduction but not a removal because at this point Sub is balanced around this for mobility, damage and survivability.
In a similar way how Outlaw Acrobatic strikes allowed for more building and spending of CPs for CDR which helpedâŠmobility, damage and surviability.
This is why you canât remove something without rebalancing an entire spec. Even with the new BF on the PTR you are still whiffing at air as Outlaw at times because of the lost Acrobatic Strikes.
Sub really needs a pass over if Invigorating Shadow Dust is being removed.
That is basically knee capping the spec like what happened with Outlaw.
6 Likes
Changing Thistle Tea isnât gonna make outlaw anymore beginner friendly, I can tell you that much.
Changing Crackshot and reliance on Subterfuge is a far bigger fish to fry.
So many parts of Outlaw are unintuitive too, like not wanting to use Ambush with certain talents and still using Sinister strike from stealth.
2 Likes
Hero Talents
- Fatebound
- Edge Case now flips a Fatebound Coin on its edge when you activate Deathmark/Adrenaline Rush instead of your next finishing move after activation.
This needs to keep itâs current effect for Outlaw. Slice and Dice aggroing enemies is bad, and Adrenaline Rush aggroing enemies will be even worse. (Good god thereâs going to be so many accidental Rogue pulls in raid the day this goes liveâŠ)
Also want to add to the opposition to full Outlaw Shadowstep removal. Should be a choice node, with the option to have 2 grapples or 1 grapple + 1 shadowstep.
4 Likes
After jumping on the PTR and testing things out Iâm actually liking some of the changes. The new Supercharger and Echoing Reprimand change actually seem pretty cool. Getting some big finishers will be exciting although it seems like Supercharger is possibly bugged, at least when I tested on Subtlety.
For Sub, I think the biggest problem with the removal of CDR is going to be how much downtime there is between uses of Shadow Dance. After bursting, thereâs basically a good 20-30 seconds where youâre basically just auto-attacking. Deepening Shadows absolutely needs to be buffed along with Gloomblade/Backstab. 40 energy for an ability that does 50k damage is just not worth it.
I like the idea of having another charge of Symbols of Death but Iâm not sure why I would need 3. I would much rather Blizzard just reintroduce the tier set bonuses from Dragonflight season 2 as talents.
Rogue Subtlety 10.1 Class Set 2pc
Rogue Subtlety 10.1 Class Set 4pc
Instead of the new âDeath Perceptionâ talent that adds the extra Symbols of Death charges, I would rather have the 4 piece bonus and then replace âPerforated Veinsâ with the 2 piece bonus. Perforated Veins is a really clunky and rarely chosen talent, so itâd be great to replace it with something that actually improves gameplay. This would essentially give us 3 Symbols of Death (1 on use and 2 more for each Shadow Dance usage) and also a critical damage bonus to our spenders.
Itâd be nice if Dark Shadow benefitted from Subterfuge too. They made this change for a handful of Outlaw/Assassination abilities so itâd be great if Subtlety could actually get some good damage out when opening from stealth and not having to immediately use Shadow Dance.
I still donât like the Thistle Tea change; they should scrap the auto proc or build the mastery/energy benefits into Shiv/Roll the Bones/Symbols of Death.
2 Likes
Blizzard, please read this <3
1 Like
Yes as everyone does on any class. Youâre attempting to be slick man and twist things. Donât do that.
Thing is devs made game 1
Players obsess and make game 2 despite things being very tightly tuned yet the sims the sims the sims yadda yadda.
People can play that way cool, others can make decisions for themselves despite the constant draining that the âcommunityâ promotes.
Sanguinary vein was removed because of the âall danceâ saboteurs and over emphasis on cds hijacking everything from then on. Abilities can breathe on their own and talents should always be available to augment playstyles.
The devs know what to do and what is right and wrong. Its good they donât listen to the hijacking that goes on each time. Its no coincidence classes are moving back into meaningful damage like frost dks and rets when they got forced into the same similar nonsense we constantly are.
More cds aint good, more time in dance devalues what it is and was. The legion style extremist nonsense can kick rocks.
Its not a discussion when people just hop on here and some speak for âallâ from whatever hivemind nonsense they hail from.
The talents are good and more is to be seen likely. Canât find a use for x? Talent into something else. We were told they arenât going to make something the âmain heroâ like how secret technique did in DF. Nothing else breathed man.
I could care less what johhny and the gang wants or what the chuck e cheese robots say or whatever else. Its miserable reading game 2 propaganda.
- ambush aka shadowstrike should and does deal damage if one talents to make it worth it
- finishers deal solid damage (ST / rupture/ eviscerate)
- gloomblade / backstab can do damage and not be useless with talents
There are different playstyles and a bunch of sick talents the devs made to augment the way YOU want to play. No ability should ever hijack the kit ever again, everything should have ways to OPTIONALLY be meaningful (as it does).
Devs deserve better, they bust their butts making a sick class of 3 rogues and people still want to be game 2 extremists to feel good about meter maid metrics. Its sorry as heck.
They did a dang good job reviving the past in new ways with cool playstyles and SHOULD continue doing that instead of gimmicks and oversaturated cds.
- We are more than our cds, we are more than shadow dance.
- hyperfixation on it is a ridiculous circle of nonsense that needs to end and more of the past returns for the health of all of us.
- hero talents are a good step in that direction and closes the gap a little and creates cool hooks and is refreshing to do something out of dance once more.
I donât care what heehaw and the rest of the jokers want to do, they can do what they want with their selected talents.
see you guys in 11.0.5 with whatever the devs see is fair, just, and for more people than what boys clubs want.
1 Like
Look you can have opinions without dismissing everyone else that doesnât agree with you so off-handedly.
Fact is each spec in the game has a damage profile, and fact is in relevant content that is important to understand. Indeed nobody cares whatever anyone does if someone just runs normal raids. But progressing Mythic raid you kinda have to pay attention to the profile of your spec and learn how to play around it.
That said, we are still looking at good updates so far for 11.0.5 so lets keep up the conversation, stay civil, and keep asking for Rogues to get good updates. We just got Echoing Reprimand + DS fixed on live, we can be positive about 11.0.5
Are we safe now to take the capstone echoing reprimand talent (3 combo points empowered) now then? Or is the full ER + DS fix part of 11.0.5?
2 Likes
We are, can check the pin in the Sin channel in the discord for details, but yes it all works. Minor % gain to go that route now but again regardless
2 Likes
iâm attempting neither of those things
iâm just saying that if an ability is off the gcd, and macroed to another ability 99-100% of the time, you might as well just combine them
i dunno why you got so aggro and went on that long, silly rant, but you gotta calm down a bit man
1 Like