While im happy for the changes I still feel disrespected by the fact that absolutely NO ONE could come in here and give us a message saying changes were in the pipeline. What the hell is that about.
Also made Shadowdust baseline and delete Tea.
3 Likes
Blizzard I would like to mention specifically that Grappling Hook fails a high % of the time when used anywhere other than a flat surface terrain. It fails constantly in the open world, not moving the rogue at all but still putting the ability on cooldown.
I used grappling hook all the time in Legion, hooking all over suramar, stormheim, everywhere and it never failed.
Please fix this.
6 Likes
Sub really needs some serious iteration and improvement in a post CDR paradigm.
The talent changes are extremely underwhelming.
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Additional symbol charges should just be baseline if CDR is being removed and add a real talent that starts to address the loss of CDR impacting our ENTIRE kit
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The new first dance change is uninspired, it should just be always extends the duration, or straight reduces the base CD or has some other interaction.
Sub needs some serious attention given the removal of such a pivotal mechanic that was spec defining.
- The loss of Sepsis on top of losing damage is also a loss of utility
- A sepsis shadow strike gives you the blink
- Loss of potential cheapshot/sap
I am not against the removal of all the shadow land remnant abilities for new spec defining talents but just having them go poof and thats it = head scratch
2 Likes
Can this just be hot fixed as far as Coup de Grace and BtE? Theyâre detriments to gameplay that shouldnât have shipped as is, and waiting for the class to be semi-functional until halfway through the tier when we were ignored for the entire development period is completely unacceptable.
5 Likes
Unfortunately, the adjustment to Thistle Tea (50 to 30) doesnât really address the point that this design is clunky and I would rather that the talent is replaced with something else instead of it going live like this.
1 Like
The mastery needs to be just built into the kit or another talent if they want this to go live like this.
As is, youâre going to have to intentionally force your energy into a deficit to proc it for your cooldown window, and have to play a juggling game to keep your energy above that line otherwise. Itâs adding another ridiculous chore to a class with enough things to track as is.
2 Likes
The only thing that was added was an auto proc if your energy falls below 30, which I completely agree is not a good design idea. You still can activate tea manually for the 100 energy and mastery buff. Either manually, or auto proc when energy goes below 30, you still have 3 charges with a 1m cooldown.
1 Like
With the reduction down to 30e you would have to really push hard to activate the new tea passively as Outlaw or Sub specs respectively. Assassination maybe? but I will have to test this. . But with two other charges left you are still able to time and line up CDs using active portion for mastery. A little clunky but in theory might work.
ideally, if you proc this passively, even back when it was 50%. then you did something wrong rotationally for every spec but outlaw 
yall are again focusing on the wrong thing.
when the new rtb supercharger talent kinda makes all the rtb rules and logics go out the window. rolling off 5 buffs cause rtb is off cd and you get two supercharger points is lowkey kinda cringe
Maybe something like this :
First, delete symbols of death. Itâs a macroed ability anyway
Then replace tea with something that says
Shiv / shadow dance / ghostly strike* restore 100 energy when used below 50% energy and last x seconds longer when used above 50% energy.
Balance the numbers as needed, but the idea is to trigger whichever effect you want just by tracking your energy, which is something all rogues should do.
*(Something from comparable from outlaw sorry i donât play it enough to know what would fit best)
1 Like
Hard pass on removing/ macroing symbols. People can choose to do that on their own.
Each class has 30s, 1min, 2min+ abilities which have varying degrees of impact that the individual can choose to or not to invest further in.
Not all of us are tea spammers or of the hive mind and find moments where precision and finesse can be used instead of overloading into dance or x cd as the developers said they are no longer doing several times now.
Specializations need to breathe and different playstyles within each specialization must be maintained instead of âonly xâ mentality which is dull. Thatâs how we ended up with legion nonsense. All tools should and can be valuable, its up to the player to decide for themselves how they want to go about it, not the cool kids boys clubs or whatever group of people saying âwe wantâ or ânobody likes _â.
TWW has done a solid job so far with further iteration to reintroduce what captured our hearts in the past in a new and dynamic way.
I dig what is going in as a Rotten focused rogue who prefers the days of meaningful ambushes and nasty backstabs.
People can choose to talent around other things for their desired way of playstyle without obstructing or class hijacking others. The 1 size fits all mentality isnât good and the devs have been pushing away from that nonsense as well as limiting what we can do flat out is sorry as heck.
Its up to the rogue to decide for THEMSELVES and should ALWAYS remain so.
2 Likes
Thatâs not true outside of dance Sub is perpetually energy starved which means this tea change is horrible cause it will proc outside of our dance windows which is absolute worse case scenario
2 Likes
Are you saying you donât sync your cds as a sub rogue?
The flaw in your entire argument is that competitive players will always gravitate and pick the talents which yield the largest throughput so the choice in large is an illusion.
Of course there is some minor preference variance but there is a reason in large all PvP and PvE specs that are utilized competitively are near carbon copies. Since performance will always outweigh preference since utilizing sub optimal builds for preference puts you at a disadvantage.
Opting to play other variants due to preference is fine but it comes at the expense of a throughput deficit. Since there will always be a âcookie cutterâ that pulls ahead. Ideally the skew between builds is so marginal that freedom of choice is more apparent but generally that doesnât end up coming to fruition.
Speaking for Sub the spec plays almost identical to DF but they are systematically gutting core aspects of the kit. The rotten playstyle already existed in DF and in fact was the BiS PvP build for a while. Though tbh it plays nothing similar to rogue of old. You honestly are disillusioned if you think the current iteration of Sub plays anything like itâs original design which is by virtue of how the game has evolved over the years.
Also on topic of symbols objectively it has no real depth to the spec as you are purporting. In PvE it is pressed on CD and generally aligned with dance.
In PvP it is defacto saved for the dance windows and never used outside of it. If it is used outside of dance it almost can be game losing for the net damage loss in your tight kill windows.
Which leads to the tangential rabbit hole discussion of Arena devolving into a PvE rotation zerg fest of who has the best damage throughput and the erosion of true setups is happening which especially sucks for rogues.
Yeah, just referring to their inability to take any minutia of feedback when it comes down to the decisions like this.
We spend 6 months or more fighting them on stuff like this, just for them to fold 2 patches later because the community was right the whole timeâŚ
Skip the nonsense. Donât add it.
2 Likes
Yeah in theory it shouldnât but you are correct that in practice that is what happens.
I concur that not every one is going to be using tea this way. I do also agree that the focus shifting back to combo point builders is really nice. Assassination and Outlaw are almost there where Sub is at regarding diversity of talent choices.
I still think that all three specs need to be rebalanced based on changes to general and spec specific tree with this PTR build but maybe that will wait for another patch.
For the love of God, can we please just get a viable build that doesnât involve Vanish Dancing? Itâs so annoying to play, especially in solo content.
5 Likes
Iâm a fan of the Slice n Dice change, it will be nice to not have to worry about maintaining it, especially at the beginning of a fight when you want to be spending combo points on finishers.
The changes to Thistle Tea are still undesirable. It seems like Blizz is trying to give passive energy regeneration but automatically consuming charges on something that also buffs damage is badly designed. The changes to Thistle Tea should be scrapped altogether or Thistle Tea should be redesigned to something like:
âUsing Shiv/Roll the Bones/Symbols of Death grants 19.6% Mastery for 6 seconds and 100 energy over the duration.â
This would reduce button bloat, grant you the mastery buff when you want, and also keep you from being starved on energy during damage windows.
The whole anima point charging has been really annoying to play around since its introduction in Shadowlands. Trying to use builders to land on your 2nd or 3rd combo point is pointless when you can just build up to a 7 point finisher instead. The new âSuperchargerâ talent should just buff your next two finishers as if they spent an extra combo point and get rid of anima charged combo points entirely. The talents would be a lot more desirable and less frustrating to play around without them.
The changes to Subtlety have been really bad overall. The hit to survivability by making Shadow Dance no longer benefit from Soothing Darkness and the loss of CDR with the removal of Invigorating Shadowdust without compensation are massive nerfs to the spec, especially in PvP. At the very least, Deepening Shadows should be buffed to reduce the cooldown of Shadow Dance (from 0.5 up to 0.8 second per combo point). It would be nice if Stiletto Staccato was reintroduced to give us CDR on Shadow Blades too, maybe replace Lingering Shadow or Perforated Veins with it since neither of those are popular talents.
The redesign to First Dance makes it situational to only benefit in M+ where you have that amount of time between pulls. At least make it apply after re-entering stealth without the 10 seconds out of combat requirement so using Vanish grants the benefit.
The change to Flagellation is solid, at least it will line up with Shadow Blades now. Itâs still an extra button that you basically are using just to get the mastery buff, personally I wouldâve like seeing it built in as a passive to Shadow Blades in addition to Shadow Blades getting a shorter cooldown.
3 Likes
God seriously, it would go a long way to just give a grace period before a mob resets so that we can choose to reinitiate combat or reset. What would be nicer is if most of my survivability wasnât around stuns and vanish for solo content when thereâs so many unstunnable/gougeable mobs though.
4 Likes
I tested out the new talents and I can say they are a mixed bag.
The new thistle tea at 30e seems to to be okay but still an issue. This is because you can consume a charge that maybe you donât want because of the mastery bonus. The mastery bonus should be tied to elsewhere iMO.
The new talent node with ER is interesting but seems to create more complexity with little pay off. Hard to say until we see final numbers.
The new ER is meh and not really interesting.
1 Like