This whole thread has boiled down to: paladins can’t tank because they don’t have an ability with only 4/5 chance of succeeding, the don’t have enough mitigation, they don’t have enough resource sustain to maintain enough threat, and rp mechanics are a negative. Thanks to one person…taking up 1/5 of the posts in this thread.
That’s it guys, paladins are worthless and can’t actually do encounters because it goes against the established hierarchy. Give up and don’t play the game because playing how you want to play in a feasible manner is not allowed or acceptable way to have fun with friends. You shouldn’t debate or express enthusiasm for the singular part of the game because it doesn’t follow the status quo. You should continue to be ridiculed, told what is acceptable, and forced to comply when you can’t provide evidence of the future. This is the one instance where it is acceptable to tell people it isn’t possible instead of being constructive by asking questions to break down particular concerns.
Sheesh, sounds oppressive doesn’t it. Funny how one person in this entire thread is the only one saying these things.
Let’s break it down:
1.5 speed weapon gives ~100 mp5 from JoW
Flurry axe gives another ~5 mp5 from JoW
SoW seems to have close to 20 ppm for ~150 mp5
Flurry axe gives another ~7.5 mp5 from SoW
Mana pot gives 75 mp5 if a fight only lasts to just before cooldown reset
BoW gives 36-39 mp5
Mageblood pot gives 12 mp5
Mana oil gives 8-12 mp5
Sagefish gives 6 mp5
This isn’t even mentioning the base mana pool. Or the possibility for an innervate.
Seems like you didn’t read anything I said. I never said they couldn’t tank. I said they’re inferior tanks to Druids and Warriors.
Leave it to a Paladin to get offended about that fact and misrepresent what I said, though. If Prot and Ret Paladins are good at anything, it’s getting upset when I say your spec is bad on the forums. Every other inferior spec gladly accepts the reality of the situation and just says “well, I prefer it anyway because I think it’s fun.”
Obviously mana ticks aren’t in intervals of 1.5, but accounting for how much mana you’ll have regenerated after each cast…
~30 mana every GCD.
~1.5 mana every GCD.
~45 mana every GCD.
~2.25 mana every GCD.
Using Mana Potions doesn’t mean you don’t have mana issues; it’s just a way to deal with your mana issues.
11.7 mana every GCD.
Mageblood isn’t out yet.
Mana Oil isn’t out yet.
Nightfin Soup is better than Sagefish Delight. 2.4 mana every GCD.
Total:
81.15 mana every GCD.
With Mana Potions:
103.65 mana every GCD.
150 mana to cast GBoK. 46.35 mana lost every GCD, even with potions.
So, with potions, you can tank for 50 seconds before going OOM. Various buffs improve this. Arcane Intellect for more mana, etc.
I can’t imagine wasting an Innervate on a Paladin tank, but then again, Innervate is such a joke with how short the fights are, I guess it wouldn’t hurt.
I’d sooner bring a Druid or Warrior to tank and just Innervate a DPS instead, though.
And what was the point of that again? No one denies the deficiencies. What they get upset about is a person with nothing better to do than to rain on their parade with nothing but negative comments that don’t even contribute to the overall thread by being nonconstructive.
Congratulations on your opinion. As all the new information and the rediscovery of mechanics are still being theorycrafted, the statement is useless if it was trying to be a statement of fact. Logically speaking it would be impossible to know at this time.
…That’s literally with no int, no int buffs, no gear. Do think warriors tank in full mitigation gear? Think again, Higher threat = more dps = less mitigation needed. If you don’t know what you are talking about, why do you let your ignorance show?
I honestly have to ask, how much threat do you think is needed? A warlock doing 1.3k dps only needs a tank to do 700 tps. A warrior doing 1.5k dps only needs a tank to do 764 tps. If the paladin is doing 1k tps they can coast at regular intervals without having to worry about losing threat. What this allows for is time that the paladin can regen freely which covers the deficit. This is an example and not meant to be 100% accurate.
Most do, actually. That’s why I bother replying, but wouldn’t bother replying to a thread full of happy Prot Paladins saying they enjoy the spec.
I’m under no obligation to fill you with happy-joy-joy feelings, nor am I required to be “constructive.”
How would you even define constructive, anyway?
That’s not an opinion. Sorry, bud.
Yep. You quoted it, yet you still missed this part:
Also, I’m not sure how much tanking gear you’ll be wearing with stats that would improve that enough to really change the point.
I don’t know if it was this thread or another thread about Paladins where I mentioned you can’t really gear well for both because few items have the stats for both, especially in Phase 1.
Of the top of my head, there’s Deathbone
Cute.
However, your threat is not as significantly improved by wearing threat gear as it would be for a Druid or Warrior. The majority of the threat, in this GBoK spamming method, comes from applying the buff, not from your gear.
That’s arguably the only benefit of this build: you can hold aggro while still being fully equipped in mitigation. If the fight is short enough, mana issues aren’t a concern.
On the longer fights, though, you’re going to have to sacrifice mitigation to maintain threat for longer.
Depends on your DPS, obviously.
True.
The 1k TPS is achieved through how many people being buffed? 9, right? I s’pose that’s easy enough to achieve, though I wouldn’t be stacking that many Mages yet. I’d be stacking that many Warriors.
Cool? You don’t spend 54 silver a minute to do your role, though, right? That’d be in addition to the 100g you spend each week raiding.
Besides, the point was not the cost. Obviously it’s affordable. Even at 12g a minute (my mistaken cost), a dedicated raider could easily afford that cost with how short the boss fights are.
The point was that I think it’s a bit silly you have to spend money to buy stacks of reagents to do what other tanks do for free. I don’t need a reagent to use Maul.
You don’t use a regeant to use Maul but there are max level Feral druids who will farm Gnomeregan for a low lvl 2h with limited charges to increase their DPS.
A recommended set of instructions that aims to collaboratively improve the overall quality of a product or service. Often containing helpful and specific suggestions for positive change, constructive criticism is highly focused on a particular issue or set of issues, as opposed to providing general feedback on the item or organization as a whole.
No one says you have to be constructive. You just end up being dead air that sounds like a troll though.
You obviously haven’t provided factual evidence to back up your statements. If it were true, you would be able to easily bring them and use them to actually make a point.
You are missing the point of threat gear obviously
That’s the beauty of it. Paladins are putting out naxx level threat out of the gate with a shield and mitigation gear. As the fights get longer, instead of damage gear you work on longevity.
What are you even arguing about? Paladins are bad? OK, fine. Paladins are bad. You are mister smart. Paladins have to work extra hard to be subpar. We don’t deserve to have fun if people let us if it means we aren’t demeaned prior by people telling us we are bad. We should never try to find value in the limitations of the game, because we are paladin. We are second class citizens that deserve to be beaten, broken, starved, and used and then tossed aside for all other master classes. That’s the answer you want right? That’s what you want all of us to accept before you leave the thread right? There you go. You should be satisfied based on what you said earlier in the thread.
This is awesome. Great job OP and whoever else helped poke a finger in the eye of the alleged elite theorycrafters from vanilla. Can’t believe it took this long for somebody to try this.
You sort of see how retail got the way it is, where if an ilvl 400 piece of gear has 10 of stat 1 and 15 of stat 2, you can be sure there will be a 405 piece with 11 of stat 1 and 16 of stat 2. Blizz doesn’t need anybody figuring out that some level 50 quest reward is actually BiS again. Long live Classic.
That being said, Blizz should leave this in game till end of phase 1 and then kill it.
At the same time, they should kill Battle Shout spam just as they did in vanilla the moment it became widespread. Issue isn’t Righteous Fury buffing it, it’s the whole issue of buffs causing stupid threat at infinite range in the first place. That trivializes every raid encounter where the difficulty comes from “collecting” mobs and pushes dungeons in the direction of retail-like AoE jokes, and simply wasn’t part of the overwhelming majority of vanilla.
At this point if it were up to me I’d throw prot pallies a bone if this is killed as it should be. Something like a trinket that requires a bunch of low percentage drops to craft that allows taunting.
Or we can go “dur dur #nochanges”. And if we do, implying that an option for warriors that nobody used in vanilla has to be preserved, regardless of what it does to the vanilla experience, then we now have to leave this brokenly ridiculous thing for paladins in the game as well. I’ll take it.
Our guild used to mess around with paly threat back in the day to get aggro from aoe packs. I think we used it on a few fights in classic, a few more in tbc but the one that i remember the best is Tidewalker in SSC. For that one when the murloc packs spawned one of our locks would life tap and our holy paly with righteous fury would throw him a Holy Light. Reason for the life tap is that IIRC you only get aggro from heals that actually restore health cause overheals dont generate aggro. We mostly did that stuff though because we didnt want packs going right for our priests or druids but instead to go right for our non-squishy paly.
Paladin Threat has never really been a question of power, but rather limited by mana on longer fights, no Taunt/Growl, and no insane modifiers to compensate for a lack of properly itemized Plate gear. The first and last can be powered through with better DPS and Healing, but the snap aggro swap is absolutely critical later on in raiding.
Never said you can’t. I’ve made that very clear by now.
Yeah, I do that. That’s not the same as spending reagents to cast your rotational abilities. That’s all I mean.
It’s a silly gimmick. I’m not saying it doesn’t work, or anything like that.
Oh, it’s in there. To be fair, it’s a small portion of the content of my posts, because there’s really little that can be done to improve what has already been theorycrafted to death.
At this point, the only criticism really left to make is more general and in comparison to the alternatives. For your viewing pleasure, though:
I have throughout this thread, actually. If you’d like, I could get more specific if there’s a particular issue you want me to provide evidence for.
I think the point is rather self-evident. You pointed out the longevity is without gear. Then you brought up Warriors not wearing full mitigation gear.
My response was that there isn’t gear that really allows you to improve your longevity without sacrificing mitigation, and the threat gear you could isn’t important because of how you’re maintaining threat.
For Prot Paladin, there isn’t just threat and mitigation, to worry about. You also have to worry about mana. Threat and mana are not the same thing. Maybe you could gear for both via plate spell power (not just +healing) gear, like T2?
That’s a problem for the spec, in my opinion. It’s the best it’s ever going to be right now. As Classic progresses, the fights get longer and the bosses hit harder. You need both mana sustainability and mitigation to improve, but you’ll only be able to improve one, because the gear is not itemized to improve both.
You’ll also need to start generating more threat as people’s DPS improves. You can’t just maintain the same TPS forever and only focus on longevity. People are already parsing rather close to the threshold of pulling aggro.
With this playstyle, the majority of your threat comes from buffing, so this could be achieved by stacking more of a class, but I don’t think that’s feasible if you’re looking to raid with a dedicated team. The teams most likely to stack a certain class are probably min/max types who wouldn’t bring a Prot Paladin, anyway.
Assuming you can improve your threat, once you’ve reached a point where you can hold aggro and aren’t dying, the only thing to improve at that point is DPS. For Druids and Warriors, that’s pretty easy. Not so much for Prot Paladins.
Whatever objective and/or quantifiable metrics regarding Prot Paladin people are bringing up, really.
Not quite what I said, but sure. Self-flagellation is definitely part of the Paladin roleplay, so I approve.
Definitely not what I said.
Well, no. Your spec is already broken, and very few people want to use it.
You could definitely be tossed aside, but not for other classes; for other specs. Holy Paladins are the best healers in the game (currently). I have nothing against Paladins.
No, you seem to have misunderstood.
I’ll quote myself again:
Misrepresenting me even if facetiously, or arguing objective and quantifiable qualities of the spec, is not going to make me go away.
Furthermore, you personally saying you’re happy won’t make me leave the thread. As long as there’s something worth responding to, I’ll respond to it.
Pretty much, yeah.
I look forward to seeing this attempted in later raids. Not that I suspect they’ll be that much harder, but I wonder how much leeway people have to do things like this just because it’s Onyxia.
You can do this with any class obviously since all they have to do is stop whatever was generating threat. But its much better to do it with a class that has an aggro wipe, at least if they are a DPS so that they can go back to helping on the boss or maybe focus on another mob while the tank generates threat on the boss. For example our strat for Al’ar during TBC was right before he went into the ground phase a lock would spam searing pain (which back then had a huge threat modifier). Then when Al’ar was active in the ground phase a tank would taunt and place themselves at he top of the aggro table and the lock would soul shatter and reduce their threat by 50%. So everyone could be at 100 threat, the lock spamming searing pain could be at 9000 threat, the tank would taunt and be at 9001 and after soul shatter the tank would be at 9001+ and the lock would be at 4500.
