I never bothered tanking in Vanilla on my Paladin, but how’s survivability for Paladins compared to Warriors?
Keeping threat from squishy Mages is important, but how long can it be maintained before even you go squish?
This isn’t a, “Warriors > Paladins” questioning, I’m honestly curious since I’m not playing Classic ATM.
We are able to wear the same type of armor and able to attain defense cap for both trash and raid bosses. We generally stay a little bit under those caps because we want to be crit so that we can utilize redoubt (30% block)
We actually have better block value than warriors until they get t3 which at that point they start to get ahead of us. 90% of our mitagation comes from blocking we also get threat from it too! (Sanctuary, Holy shield blocks)
Essentially get the proper amount of defense and keep your block chance high! Redoubt should be up semi frequently single target and holy shield provides you another 30%.
We do have one defensive CD! That being Lay on Hands. I generally talent into IMP LOH because it gives you 30% armor after use providing some mitagation for a short time. But naturally warriors have better defensive CDs. But we are still more than capable.
No, I understand the class just fine, which is why I know it’s terrible.
Because it is. He can regenerate quickly, but it’s not fast enough if he’s still casting in that time.
True, which is there to help with the mana issues that I mentioned. Then he just didn’t bother tanking P3 of the fight, so it wasn’t needed.
I’m not sure why you think “he had mana potions” is somehow an argument against the fact that the spec has mana issues. The point of the mana potion is to address the mana issues. Haha.
Well, for Phase 1, Onyxia is the only boss immune to taunt.
Of all the bosses, I think these are the ones that are immune:
Phase 1:
Onyxia
1/11
BWL:
Razorgore
Vaelastraz
Broodlord lashslayer
Chromaggus
Nefarian
5/8
ZG:
Gri’lek
Hakkar
2/13
AQ20:
Ayamiss
Osirian
2/6
AQ40:
Huhuran
1/9
Naxx:
Gluth
Anub rekhan
2/15
Yeah. “Most” bosses are immune to taunt, if 13/62 is “most.” I actually don’t know if the world dragon bosses are immune to taunt. You can say they are, bringing it to 18/67.
Uh… wouldn’t that imply you’d use Crusader?
Then giving advice to use it is kind of pointless at this time.
If you say so.
He didn’t say anything about Improved Blessing of Wisdom and Consumables. I suppose the former could be assumed if you’re in a raid, so I’ll allow that one, but the point I was making is that SoW and its Judgment are not enough on their own to sustain spamming GBoK to maintain threat.
The fact you’re using Mana Potions to deal with your mana issues as a Prot Paladin do not mean you don’t have mana issues. Bears and Warriors instead get to use Stoneshield Potions, Protection Potions, etc. I suppose you could use Dark/Demonic Runes for mana instead, but I think that would be ill-advised as a tank. Onyxia doesn’t hit hard, though, so maybe that wouldn’t be a problem.
Sure, bud. lol
Cute, except the point of that statement was that your time to level being increased by 50% is only significant if your time to live is already decent to begin with.
If your time to live is 5 seconds, 2.5 more seconds is not that significant.
Whatever makes you feel better, buddy. Hahah.
How many clears of MC and Onyxia do you have on your tank so far, out of curiosity?
I assume you mean 0/21/30. Yeah, that makes sense. That’s why I said Consecration was better for general tanking purposes, though. I spend the majority of my time in dungeons. Not because I don’t raid, mind you, but because you can only do raids once a week.
If I were a Prot Paladin, unless I had enough gold for it, I wouldn’t be respeccing for single-target threat. I’d just keep my general tanking build.
Already addressed this. I’m going to have to edit that post so people quit quoting it to point that out.
Sounds pretty bad to me. Doesn’t cost me 54 silver a minute to use Maul, for example.
Probably, but you’d be totally justified in saying that it sucks that you have to spend so much money and bag space to do DPS as a Hunter, just as you would be justified in saying it sucks that you have to spend so much money to hold threat as a Prot Paladin.
You don’t really need that many of them unless your entire raid is asking for a summon, in which case you’ve got bigger problems. Soul Shards are also free, and can be obtained within the raid itself.
Oh the other fun part about having SoC was 2 hander tanking in Dire Maul.
Back then CC was used so:
JotC
Seal of Command
Judged Command
Lock threat
Loot
Plate + defensive talents + Dev Aura meant single target wasn’t an issue.
Groups thought it was hilarious 
It’s because the the author has to manually add the threat values to the addon. It’s not provided by the game in vanilla/classic. Can’t remember what expansion changed that.
My question is this.
As your raid gets geared, will you have to watch your threat doing trash in mc?
If so, that will be a slow burn of a run…
Later on dps will be going ham to clear that place and if pallies cant hold aggro when its on farm, its back to warriors.
I think its pretty cool that a pally “can” tank but beyond bwl, i see dps outscaling pally aggro no matter what tricks you pull. Even t2 warriors start doing face roll damage.
face meet palm…did you just pull that list out of your rear end?
You mean now that I’m older, how much of my life do I put on hold to clear 15 year old content as quck as possible.
hmmm, I think that says more about you than me.
People use consumeables in raids. This does on occasion happen.
Sad that it affects your sensibilities.
Not needed.
Thought I was pretty clear when I said that.
The only mob that Paladins have an issue with for MC, Ony, and BWL is Domo.
Even then its doable, its just a pain in the rump.
Remember all of this has been successfully done before…I don’t think thats sinking in with you yet.
He doesn’t need to cast it all the time, he just needs to cast it enough.
Threat isn’t a more is always better situation…it is a Threshold!
No
I mistyped, because I’m not used to explaining it to others, ie non Paladins, and having to type it out.
But since I’m dealing with someone who doesn’t really understand vanilla Paladins…
Again this tells me your clueless
+50% Time to Live is Massive.
Trivial to Challenging fits within that 50%
Tanks will spend 1 or 2 Phases of content, acquiring gear, enchanting gear, using consumables, etc to achieve that.
You would know that if you had any extensive experience on a tank during challenging content.
Having SoC is great for farming, between raids, while still maximizing single target threat in 5 mans and raids when required.
If you think of Strath dead side or Scholo we already have the additional threat tools because we are facing undead.
edit: And as I stated 2 hander SoC tanking is rather fun
Nope.
I notice you don’t have your own list, though. Curious, how many of the bosses have you done so far? How many bosses have you found to be immune to t-- oh, you’re level 17. Right.
Nope. You said I have no clue about high end tanking. I’ve been tanking what is currently the “high end” since week 2.
You aren’t even 60. If anyone doesn’t have a clue about high end tanking, I’m betting it’s the person who hasn’t even done the content yet, especially when that person thinks you have to put your life on hold to clear the content. It takes a couple of hours, at most.
Duh. My point is that the spec has mana issues, and needs consumables to help deal with it. The other two tank specs don’t have that issue, and are free to use consumables that help more with the fight instead of having to use consumables just to be able to do their job.
Nah. It seems to offend the delicate sensibilities of Paladins when I call Prot and Ret terrible, though.
Oh, don’t worry, I understand that a handful of Paladins have done this. Doesn’t make it any good.
I s’pose it doesn’t really matter, though, since the Phase 1 bosses are really easy.
Fair point, but you must maintain your position above that threshold by doing more threat, especially on Onyxia where she reduces your threat.
Wow. What a concept.
“your” clueless. Haha.
Relatively, yes, but the actual time to live matters more.
Which is better? A 5% TTL increase when your TTL is 60 seconds, or a 50% increase when your TTL is 10 seconds?
Yeah, except the context in which that comment was made was in reference to DUNGEONS. Hardly “challenging” content.
Sure, you have some added tools against Undead, making them arguably the best tanks for those dungeons. I’ve never really commented negatively on the viability of Prot Paladin… in dungeons.
lol that avatar is outdated friend - anywho…
you might wanna redo your research if you think that many raid bosses are able to be taunted in vanilla/classic
otherwise you are in for quite a rude awakening…
Just wanted to ask since you had vanilla experience with Bshout, is the threat generated the same per enemy or does it split between total enemies in combat? I’ve seen people claim both ways and the blue post in the bug report forum about bshout made it sound like it shouldn’t split, but some people said the post meant something else (discussed at the end of this thread: Nerf Battleshout Spam, one person gave a long example of how it worked and claims it spit, but the other guy claims it does not and I found a reddit thread post hotfix that claims threat is split per enemy).
IE: some claim it now doesn’t split at all so threat is something like 55 x 5 (or number of friendlies hit) x 1.3 = 358 threat on every single enemy in combat while others say it’s divided by the number of enemies then so if there were 5 enemies it’d only be ~72 threat per enemy per cast.
MC is 15 years old now…and High End…I missed the memo!
I think your missing the point…so I’ll go slow.
Its not new content.
Its 15 years old.
I’ve tanked it before…on a Paladin, Druid and Warrior.
Thank you for making my point for me.
For once we are on the same page!
Dear Lord.
Its not about how many seconds.
In raids TTL is very short, hence why tanks have more than 1 healer…but +50% is huge.
From the advent of MC to end game Naxx Warriors have:
7k AC and end with just over 10k
~33% pure avoidance to ~40% pure avoidance.
The stats that spike are Block, Block Rating, and HP calculations in regards to effective health.
That’s just the way itemization works out.
Its pretty easy to figure out that a +50% in Time to Live is a HUGE gain when you factor in those stats.
The rest comes from pots, flasks, buffs, inspiration procs etc.
And outside of Inspiration most are static and don’t scale.
The comment was in reference to why Prot Paladins have Seal of Command in the first place.
My response was telling you why…because you didn’t know why…
Dude you honestly put WAY too much personal stock into how others play the game. Literally the only thing that matters in raiding is whether or not the bosses die. How that happens is completely irrelevant. If a pally spamming BoGK can get bosses killed, what else matters?
Have video proof that a pally can tank a raid, and people still saying they run out of mana too fast and can’t hold threat because they don’t have a “taunt” 
Mana is a non issue when these fights only last 3 minutes. Most MC fights last like 35-40 seconds(besides rag) This guy didn’t even mana pot at the point where he was really low on mana and ended the fight with a good chunk of it left. Seems like the limitation is time, with around 2-2.5 minutes being the mana pot point, and past that 3.5 minutes seems like it would be the limitation.
Only time will tell how long other raid fights last, people are better players now.
Agreed
Paladins have issues past the 6 or 7 minute mark.
You can also use Night Dragon’s Breath and Runes during transitions.
Up to mid AQ 40 Paladins tank just fine in raids.
The 2 problems from that point on are threat, which for a Paladin is mostly static and non scaling and gear.
Almost all main armor tank gear at that point for Warriors is set pieces, and Paladin set pieces are pure healing at that point.
Which means Paladins don’t get the AC or Hp gains that Warriors do from AQ and beyond while maintaining solid +def levels.
At that point in the game Effective Health is king for Plate tanks. Hence why Holy Paladins shift to raid healing almost exlusively while Priests heal tanks for Inspiration Procs.
The threat issue comes into play when you start see’ing high end dps, who know what they are doing, start pushing 1300+ DPS.
Even with Salvation thats hard to hold off considering Warriors and Locks don’t have much in the way of threat control at that point, and Locks have ramped up pretty hard.
Up until that point though and you should have fun while playing a tank…this is after all a game to be enjoyed.
Paladins are perfectly viable tanks until though issues arise…and depending on the guild they may come even later.
Then how many of the bosses have you done so far? How many have you found to be immune to taunt?
You might want to redo your research if you think 95% of raid bosses are immune to taunt.
And?
Cool. Have you tanked it in Classic, though? The meta, for lack of a better word, has changed quite a lot since vanilla.
Stop right there.
The comment you’re referencing was NOT made within the context of raiding. The comment was made in a thread about tanking DUNGEONS.
Nope. If people said “I enjoy Paladin tanking even though I know it isn’t optimal,” I’d never bother responding, because there’s nothing to be said in response to that.
However, when people bring up objective metrics, especially if they get it wrong, there’s reason to reply.
To you, I guess. I care a bit more about my own performance. I’m not content to play a trash spec just because the boss dies, anyway.
Actually, prot paladins do way more dps than warriors.
Haha. Sure, bud.
The meta has, the mechanics haven’t.
Gear hasn’t either
Buffs haven’t either
Content hasn’t either
and so on and so forth…
I have not tanked it in Classic yet…because I’m taking my time and enjoying the GAME…and have other things to do IRL.
The context you posted in was indeed instancing.
But TTL is the same concept in both.
And the healer who started the post stated quite clearly they were having mana issues because the tank refused to use a shield at any time during the instance.
Doesn’t matter, taunt isn’t required.
Ask any Warrior or Druid how many times in MC they have used taunt or mocking blow and you will understand.
Every time you post you use 2 overriding principles:
Learn to Play…which I find ironic from someone who posts the nonsense about tanking that you do.
And the “Look at ME” philosophy of attention grabbing.
You rarely contribute in a positive fashion in any thread you post in, you never offer tips or solid advice…you just complain like a petulant child that things don’t work.
Except they do.
Always have.
Even when there is overwhelming evidence to support it, including video clips for your perusal, still you refuse to comprehend.
The problem isn’t the class or the role.
The problem is YOU!