Righteous Fury Mechanics == OP Paladin Threat (1k+ TPS)

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Do you have a problem with that?

Honestly, if you’re willing to go to those lengths to make yourself viable, I commend you. You still have mana issues, a lack of taunt, generally poorer mitigation, and worse DPS, but hey, you can hold aggro for 54 silver a minute.

[Theloras-herod]

Probably anyone who doesn’t want dps to die while they cast blessings 5+ times just to maybe catch up to them in threat.

lol each GBoK threat is MULTIPLIED by the number of players for each class broheim

watch the video again and maybe pay attention this time to what they are actually describing in detail…

and read again here what Askalon wrote earlier in this thread:

In general, Greater Blessings have the highest threat potential because their base threat is multiplied by the number of people affected. Greater Blessing of Kings is the best option because it has the lowest mana cost out of all the Greater Blessing spell. Blessing of Wisdom and its Greater counterpart do not generate any threat at all.

In the Onyxia tanking video, I was spamming Greater Blessing of Kings.
With 9 mages (1 was dead at the start of the fight ), the threat I was getting per cast was:
60 * 9 * 1.9 = 1026 threat
If continuously spamming GBoK with 1.5 GCD, that’d be about 684 TPS on its own. This greatly exceeds the threat potential of traditional threat generation abilities such as Consecration, Seal of Righteousness, and other Holy damage abilities.

[Tesla-heartseeker]

kudos for posting our findings, I certainly couldn’t have done as detailed a write up and no one listens to me anyway ;p
I would like to emphasize this:

Although not intentional, by virtue of being a mechanic/bug that was left untampered with for the lifespan of WoW Vanilla up until the launch of The Burning Crusade, it is my personal opinion that the Righteous Fury mechanic should remain in Classic in its current state under the #nochanges rule, regardless of it being a bug.

for anyone skeptical:
https://wow.tools/dbc/?dbc=spellauranames&build=1.12.1.5875#search=10&page=1
https://wow.tools/dbc/?dbc=spelleffectnames&build=1.12.1.5875#search=6&page=1
https://classic.wowhead. om/spell=25780/righteous-fury
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=7376/defensive-stance-passive
https://wow.tools/dbc/? dbc=spelleffect&build=1.13.2.31882#search=25780&page=1
https://wow.tools/dbc/?dbc=spelleffect&build=1.13.2.31882#search=7376&page=1 (third one)

not very likely

if you look at https://wow.tools/dbc/?dbc=spelleffectnames&build=1.12.1.5875#search=threat&page=1

you’ll see there is only two threat effects

and the second one is never used

in the 1.13 client

if you put 91 in effect(toggle filters first) https://wow.tools/dbc/?dbc=spelleffect&build=1.13.2.31882#search=&page=1

nothing shows up

granted that is the 1.13 client, but if anyone wants to try to find spell effect for 1.12, be my guest. they have a alpha build for spell, but not 1.12 for spell or spell effect

[Theloras-herod]

Buffs being viewed as a threat seems reasonable, but the spamming part of it seems like a bug doesn’t it? Just like demo shout spam?

Gonna say its a bug.

Back in OG spamming battleshout on people who already had it didnt raise threat. It was only the initial cast.

Im inclined to think the same with pally blessings

ThelorasLast Wednesday at 10:54 AM
@Kevin Jordan - is this working correctly/as intended from your pov?

TLDR - no one ever thought that spamming Blessings and Seals could produce agro - all of which are modified by Righteous Fury
who needs a taunt lol

Kevin JordanLast Wednesday at 10:57 AM
Buffs do generate threat and Greater Blessings buff a number of people. I don’t remember the values but they should not generate any more or less threat than any other buff. What matters most here is the number of targets (running a lot of mages are you? :P) and Righteous Fury modifying it.

ThelorasLast Wednesday at 10:58 AM
was RF supposed to boost threat from everything and not just holy dmg abilities?
cuz that was my and every other theory crafter’s thought for years
and RF boosting Seals/Blessings made us all /boggle come classic

Kevin JordanLast Wednesday at 10:58 AM
Holy attacks only.

ThelorasLast Wednesday at 10:58 AM
ok so then this is a bug?

Kevin JordanLast Wednesday at 10:59 AM
if it’s modifying greater blessing threat generation, yes.

ThelorasLast Wednesday at 10:59 AM
ok thx for the feedback

Kevin JordanLast Thursday at 12:44 PM
Yes, it makes sense that Defensive Stance and Righteous Fury would be built the same but there may have been (or should have been) a script attached to Righteous Fury to limit it to attacks only. The warrior doesn’t have as many buffs as the paladin which is the reason the tooltips read the way they do to prevent that awkward paladin play pattern. Something we may have missed back then though. We also have #nochanges to contend with.

[Tesla-heartseeker]

I’d also like to highlight some points made in this thread:

Seal/Judgement of Wisdom is BiS threat and mana regen now while GBoK spam for threat

Well, the possible large on demand threat generation makes it a lot easier to use pure threat generation to swap aggro. And there is no chance for a resist unlike taunt.

Seal/Judgement of Wisdom is BiS threat and mana regen now while GBoK spam for threat

Well, the possible large on demand threat generation makes it a lot easier to use pure threat generation to swap aggro. And there is no chance for a resist unlike taunt.

Paying 30 silver every 1.5 seconds to hold aggro.

Honestly, if you’re willing to go to those lengths to make yourself viable, I commend you. You still have mana issues, a lack of taunt, generally poorer mitigation, and worse DPS, but hey, you can hold aggro for 12g a minute.

Worse DPS than sunder? And mitigation can be made up for by wearing defensive gear, which doesn’t degrade threat generation. As for cost:

Symbols cost 1 silver, 35 copper each. Reagent Vendors sell them in stacks of 20 for 27 silver. It’s pretty cheap.

I don’t get your point.
Every role has a bunch of consumables/buffs to use if they really want to push their limits, and they all take gold or time to attain. It’s like calling mages and warlocks who pop major mana potions on every CD tryhards. Or telling melee DPS who spend all day farming Jujus in Winterspring that they’re wasting their time.

You’re very spot-on with your observations!

Don’t forget that Righteous Fury will increase the threat from ANY of your paladin abilities, so you can multiply base threat by x1.9 (with improved RF).
The base threat value of Blessings and most other paladin abilities tend to be the level that they’re learnt at. For example, if you learn Blessing of Might Rank 6 at level 52, then it will have a base threat of 52, and with Imp RF it’d be 98 threat. Regular blessings only affect one person at a time though so it’s not that much threat, although the long cast range is something to note, as you mentioned.

In general, Greater Blessings have the highest threat potential because their base threat is multiplied by the number of people affected. Greater Blessing of Kings is the best option because it has the lowest mana cost out of all the Greater Blessing spell. Blessing of Wisdom and its Greater counterpart do not generate any threat at all.

In the Onyxia tanking video, I was spamming Greater Blessing of Kings.
With 9 mages (1 was dead at the start of the fight ), the threat I was getting per cast was:
60 * 9 * 1.9 = 1026 threat
If continuously spamming GBoK with 1.5 GCD, that’d be about 684 TPS on its own. This greatly exceeds the threat potential of traditional threat generation abilities such as Consecration, Seal of Righteousness, and other Holy damage abilities.

With the large amount of threat that I’m generating with GBoK spam, I can simplify my rotation to:

• JoW and SoW for mana regen (approx. 125 to 190 MP5 excluding gear and cons)
• Holy Shield for mitigation
• GBoK spam for threat generation

I haven’t tested the base threat from Righteous Fury or Seal spells since they don’t seem like a mana-efficient threat generation abilities to spam.

Ony cant be taunted anyway. GG warr

paladins can also generate threat during air phase [quote=“Askalon-pagle, post:39, topic:318279”]
Similar to Battle Shout, the threat of Greater Blessings is intended to be multiplied by the number of players buffed in a single cast.

That part that remains contested is whether Righteous Fury bug should be unaltered b/c #nochanges and continue to affect the threat of Greater Blessings and non-damaging Holy spells in general, similar to how Defensive Stance affects Battle Shout threat.
[/quote]

There’s no reason why paladin blessings should be treated any differently, especially after the Demo and Battle Shout fixes from a few weeks ago.
" In addition, we’ve also identified a fix for a separate issue that was causing Battle Shout] and most healing spells, effects, and buffs to incorrectly split the threat they generate between enemies that had members of the buffed party on their threat list."
The blue post seems to imply that abilities similar to Battle Shout such as Greater Blessings would be fixed as well, with regards to not having threat split. I think it’s reasonable to assume that Greater Blessings have their threat multiplied by number of players buffed.

I used to do it in raids to troll cocky tanks on trash and started playing 1.10, so it worked between between that patch and TBC at least. I only tanked guild 5 mans so it was pretty pointless to do in them.

But battle shout was amazing AOE threat.

This seems better than a taunt and doesn’t it apply to all enemies? Making it an aoe taunt? Also the thing about mana is that I notice the pally in the video still had mana left over. Guilds are doing rag in 2mins and other fights close to 30 seconds, this fight was longer.

With a much more viable threat generation solution now available that can rival that of warriors, prot paladins don’t need to use spellpower gear anymore to increase their threat. Now we can focus our tanking itemization on two things: Mitigation and Mana Regeneration.

Yes, it’s still a delicate balancing act, and we still don’t have taunt, but it’s a big step closer towards protection paladins becoming slightly more viable for raid tanking.

[Huntryss-bloodsail-buccaneers]

Yes, I see that broheim – now how about 1/2 thru the raid encounter where he had no mana, lost threat during phase 2, and Onyxia had to be tanked by somebody else for the remainder? It’s a cute mechanic, and yes they can generate a lot of threat through unintended mechanics and coding, but is it very sustainable, even with SoW/JoW, for prolonged raid encounters without burning druid innervates (and even with)?

It’s a creative way to bypass Paladin shortfalls, albeit an additional upkeep of reagent spamming, lack of taunt, less mitigation, lower DPS, and poor resource management.

[Valarkin-pagle]

no one ever thought that spamming Blessings and Seals could produce agro - all of which are modified by Righteous Fury

It was posted in the original Prot Paladin tanking thread during vanilla once RF was implemented.

I know this because I wrote and maintained the thread under Valarkin of Stormrage back in the day.

As a Prot Paladin I tanked MC, Ony, BWL and early AQ during vanilla.

• AoE taunt
• On demand taunt

Not needed until Twin Emps.

• Way to debuff Armor (sunder)
• Way to debuff attack speed (thunderclap)
• Way to debuff AP (demo shout).

I had a Warrior b*tch…and they did what they were told!~

Lack on demand defensives that you can actually use:
a) Last Stand
b) Shield Wall
Divine shield and BoP used on yourself as the tank means you are no longer tanking so you need cancel auras and to rely on the ot healers to cover you.

DS and BoP can be macro’d to instantly remove their auras. They function as cures, fear breaks, etc

You still have mana issues, a lack of taunt, generally poorer mitigation, and worse DPS, but hey, you can hold aggro for 12g a minute.

Again taunt isn’t an issue.

Paladins have the same passive tanking dynamics as Warriors.

And yes threat is a major issue when fights are harder burning and shorter…ie Prot/Fury Warrior 2 hander tanking on bosses when possible for threat.

The issue with Paladins is after BWL they don’t scale. Most threat sources are relatively static and don’t ramp up.

Moreover starting with AQ 40, with the exception of offslot gear Paladins can’t maintain +def while scaling their effective health values because there isn’t tanking gear for a Paladin.

Lastly by mid AQ40, even with Greater Blessings the other 2 tank classes catch up in threat, and Bears even surpass Paladins using Greater Blessings. Maul has a 262% threat modifier with talents and is the greatest scaling threat generator in game.

With all that being said Paladins tank MC, BWL, AQ20, and early AQ40 just fine.

As long as your willing to put in the work doing some farming, and like the challenge of it… then by all means have at it and enjoy!

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Worse DPS than sunder?

Yes. Far worse DPS. You don’t just spam Sunder Armor.

And mitigation can be made up for by wearing defensive gear

Which then makes your mana issues even worse. Even then, the best mitigation gear in the game doesn’t make up for the fact Protection Paladin mitigation is inherently worse due to their toolkit.

What about your lack of taunt? Granted, that doesn’t matter on Onyxia, but Onyxia isn’t the only boss in the game.

[Tesla-heartseeker]

Yes, I see that broheim – now how about 1/2 thru the raid encounter where he had no mana, lost threat during phase 2, and Onyxia had to be tanked by somebody else for the remainder? It’s a cute mechanic, and yes they can generate a lot of threat through unintended mechanics and coding, but is it very sustainable, even with SoW/JoW, for prolonged raid encounters without burning druid innervates (and even with)?

It’s a creative way to bypass Paladin shortfalls, albeit an additional upkeep of reagent spamming, lack of taunt, less mitigation, lower DPS, and poor resource management.

he never actually runs out of mana, he still has mana pots off cd to use. This becomes even less of an issue with better gear, along with everything else. Imunities are actually better than shield wall in many ways, and clear most debuffs, reducing the need for taunt swaps, and when needed can be easily accomplished with a warrior off tank worth his weight in plate.
The only reason he lost aggro was because he had too much aggro and was targetted by multiple fireballs. With better understanding of the fight and fully functional threat meters this becomes a non issue.

[Theridon-atiesh]

Omg true af. You gotta basically auto attack long fights lmao

[Theloras-herod]

Which then makes your mana issues even worse. Even then, the best mitigation gear in the game doesn’t make up for the fact Protection Paladin mitigation is inherently worse due to their toolkit.

What about your lack of taunt? Granted, that doesn’t matter on Onyxia, but Onyxia isn’t the only boss in the game.

1. Seal/Judgement of Wisdom says hello

2. 95% of the raid bosses are immune to taunt anyway lol

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Seal/Judgement of Wisdom

Okay? They still have mana issues even with that, especially when you’re spamming buffs the entire fight.

95% of the raid bosses are immune to taunt anyway

Not even close.

[Theloras-herod]

Okay? They still have mana issues even with that, especially when you’re spamming buffs the entire fight.

not with Seal/Judgement of Wisdom

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

not with Seal/Judgement of Wisdom

Yes, even with that.

[Theloras-herod]

Yes, even with that.

nope

[Tesla-heartseeker]

Worse DPS than sunder?

Yes. Far worse DPS. You don’t just spam Sunder Armor.
IIRC sunder is the best rage : aggro and thats important when off tanking.

And mitigation can be made up for by wearing defensive gear

Which then makes your mana issues even worse. Even then, the best mitigation gear in the game doesn’t make up for the fact Protection Paladin mitigation is inherently worse due to their toolkit.

What about your lack of taunt? Granted, that doesn’t matter on Onyxia, but Onyxia isn’t the only boss in the game.

it actually doesn’t make mana issues worse, this is a common misconception from people that understandably don’t know much about prot paladins, which is unsurprising due to them being a dark horse and not many people having the balls to play them.

Regarding taunt:
By riding threat like tanks did in bc where even more bosses were immune to taunt than vanilla. This becomes trivial once threat meters are fully functional

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

nope

Yep. You can do the math if you want, but if you’re spamming GBoK to generate threat, Wisdom won’t generate enough mana to be sustainable for very long.

it actually doesn’t make mana issues worse

It does, actually. Aside from a very specific pieces, the gear doesn’t really allow you to gear for mana sustainability and mitigation.

which is unsurprising due to them being a dark horse and not many people having the balls to play them.

It’s not about having the balls to play them; it’s about them being bad. Few people want to play a bad spec, especially if it has to use silly gimmicks like this to even hold aggro.

Regarding taunt:
By riding threat like tanks did in bc where even more bosses were immune to taunt than vanilla. This becomes trivial once threat meters are fully functional

Well, good luck with that, I s’pose.

[Theloras-herod]

Yep. You can do the math if you want, but if you’re spamming GBoK to generate threat, Wisdom won’t generate enough mana to be sustainable for very long.

dude, you didn’t even know that Symbols of Kings were in stacks of 20…

lolz

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

dude, you didn’t even know that Symbols of Kings were in stacks of 20…

And you think 95% of bosses are immune to taunt. I corrected my mistake and my point is still valid.

So…?

[Valarkin-pagle]

Could pallies be used to use the blessing to quickly pump up huge threat, and be taunted off by a warrior for a bigger threat lead in fights where shield wall is needed and threat is the DPS limiting factor?

Yes

On many occasions, as a Prot Paladin, I was used as lead off tank.

I would hammer as much threat as I could for nearly a minute.

Warrior would taunt off me and then dump a full rage bar.

It’s called aggro leapfrogging, and its quite effective when you want a warrior MT’ing a given fight, but you want the extra threat.

I would Judge and maintain Wisdom for the raid after the Warrior taunted.

Use Nightfall with rank 1 SoC and judged SoC.

Patch heal with Holy Light with my excess mana when needed.