I was wondering, in the first phase when you started tanking, only 8 seconds in you drooped to 3rd on the threat meter by 45 seconds in I don’t even see you on the threat meter anymore. So how is it you are holding threat, should you not have lost threat 8 seconds into the fight?
GBoK doesn’t show up on the threat meter - that’s why - the addon author needs to rejig it to allow GBoK’s threat to show up
iirc i think Seal/Judgement of Wisdom is also in the same boat - does boatloads of threat but doesn’t show up on the addon
This isn’t multiplicative mathematics.
We are talking one very specific tank type only, who happens to bring two other forms of utility.
Ret Paladins do about 50 to 55% of a warriors damage while bringing lots of utility.
If you use it they are worth it.
If you don’t they are not.
Everyone else is brought to do DPS, unless they are healing…that’s kinda their job first and foremost.
Your argument is based on a false premise of per person scaling that doesn’t exist.
200 to 300 Raid Wide DPS.
That’s the affect…not 300 * 15 or so.
That was made quite clear, you chose to ignore that to create an argument that didn’t exist.
Yes, currently over Druids as well.
And no it does not require 10 of a class.
Unless of course your about to try and tell me that your doing ~400 DPS…from a frontal facing…while eating Parry and Block Boss triggers.
Paladins, Bless tanking, can hold off full raid wide DPS until mid AQ40. So yes even more than Bears atm.
Judgement of Wisdom.
Devotion Aura in the tank group.
Sacrifice 200 DPS FROM ONLY THE PALADIN and you get both.
Between Dev Aura, Shield and Block talents you can even have a healer Spec and Gear DPS and net DPS by needing 1 less tank healer, if your using a DW or 2H Warrior tank.
JoW is a powerful source of mana regen for ranged damage, even if right now with super short fights its not a DPS gain…it will be.
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Yes, there is.
If you are holding aggro with the threat you are generating, more threat does nothing.
It is already possible to generate more threat than the DPS can generate even without holding back.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=664
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=664&class=Paladin&spec=Retribution
They’ve improved a bit since I last checked. Looks like 1/3 on Magmadar.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=670&class=Warrior&spec=Fury
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=670&class=Paladin&spec=Retribution
Still 1/4 on Golemagg.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=663&class=Warrior&spec=Fury
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#boss=663&class=Paladin&spec=Retribution
1/5 on Lucifron.
Ret doesn’t bring unique utility. Everything they bring can be brought by a Holy Paladin, who is currently the top healing spec.
Tanks can deal DPS, as well. This realization will improve your clear speeds dramatically.
Tanks aren’t there just to mitigate damage. That’s only one compmonent on tanking.
No, you just don’t understand the point I was making.
Obviously the tank doing more DPS doesn’t mean everyone in the raid deals that much (unless threat was an issue before). I’m saying the mentality of allowing a Prot Paladin because “they only do 300 less DPS” is going to apply to EVERYONE in the raid.
Nope. I’ve already shown the math.
Yes, it does.
I’ve already shown the math on it. With 10 people, you are able to start exceeding the threat generated by a Feral Druid that isn’t in full BiS.
You can hold aggro, yes. I’ve said that was true plenty of times.
Brought by Holy Paladin.
Brought by a Holy Paladin.
That’s not an upside.
…?
It isn’t even remotely close to a net DPS gain to bring a Prot Paladin. Do you have any idea what you’re talking about? That’s even more the case if they spec Holy instead of Prot.
If you are having your Prot Paladin heal when they aren’t tanking, you don’t have one less tank healer… you didn’t gain a DPS, you reserved a slot as a tank/healer.
Not unique to Prot Paladin. Next.
No.
Maintaining JoW as Holy is not really feasible. It cost 600 to 700 mana per minute, requires melee proximity, and exposure to PBAE and other close proximity ground fail. It forces a Paladin to run out at a time they should be raid healing.
Thats not what I’m saying. I never suggested a Prot Paladin tried to heal or vice versa.
What I’m saying is if your Warrior tank is 6k AC, open to crushes and no block compared to a near 10k AC tank with block and reduced crushes you can actually shed a tank healer and replace them with a real DPS.
That actually has been done before.
Your math means squat when actual resultant experience can be utilized.
Are you breaking 400 DPS on bear while facing a boss from the front? Is every attack you make Maul and not auto attack?
Two simple questions. Its not theorycraft.
If you can’t answer a resounding yes to both then you would be wrong.
The problem with your posts is they are generalized nonsense.
Your posts clearly illustrate you have no actual experience on a Paladin…Prot, Holy or otherwise.
Judgement is 10 yards.
Judgement require 3 talents to increase duration to 40s
Paladins first have to cast a seal before utilizing it.
Fight mechanics frequently mean you have to overwrite the 40s before duration expires.
Placing your Holy Paladins, in melee proximity, burning GCD’s and forcing movement for a class that has no appreciable instant cast isn’t the brightest thing to be doing.
Just because an ability is listed for a whole class doesn’t mean its in any way easily applied for a given spec.
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It seems you believe you have constructed a valid argument, but you’re wrong.
If the tank is generating “excess” aggro, that is simply another way of saying the raid can deliver more DPS. Damage delivered is not a function of the tank’s role.
No one suggested that a tank should “hold back;” you’ve simply inverted the point and confused yourself in the process. DPS has to restrain itself from over-riding threat. There is never a situation where a tank should “hold back” its threat generation.
There is no such as “excess threat.” It’s simply capacity. The only relevance that would have is that a paladin tank, if it is generating more threat than the DPS requires, is free to do other things. Even if it does happen, there is no downside to generating too much threat, which undermines your conclusion that paladin tanks generating “excess threat” is a concern.
This isn’t true at all as DPS doesn’t scale such that Tanks are always hobbling them by some amount. A Mage dealing 500 DPS isn’t going to do 550+ if you churn out an extra 1k TPS. DPS classes have their own thresholds as well…
I’m not sure what point you think you’re making. The issue isn’t whether a tank can create more threat than the DPS in a raid needs, the issue is whether that happening somehow limits the raid. It doesn’t limit the raid if the tank somehow creates more threat than the raid’s DPS can deliver. All that means is the DPS is capable of delivering more DPS. If the DPS, for some reason, can’t deliver more DPS, that’s not the tanks problem and it’s also not necessarily even a problem for the raid at all.
If it is a problem, which would only be that the boss wasn’t dropping fast enough, then the fight requires more DPS. It’s not a tank’s job to deliver more DPS and shore up that deficiency.
The entire argument about threat vs. DPS is predicated on this premise:
That’s a subjective argument. It’s not been established that more dps is always better. More DPS can make a fight end quicker, but that’s not necessarily a “better” fight.
… yes it is.
Auto attacks refresh its duration, so it doesn’t cost mana to maintain.
Even if you cannot auto attack to refresh its duration, there is a talent in Holy specifically designed to increase its longevity, and talents in Retribution to reduce the cost.
The Paladin assigned to maintain Judgement of Wisdom, if that’s even something you guild needs, can easily afford the mana to maintain it.
If you think 600-700 mana per minute is too much, you’re playing with healers who don’t know how to manage their mana.
Well, Judgement isn’t exactly melee range, but yeah, you will need to refresh it by getting closer.
For most fights, that isn’t issue. For fights where it is, Judgement isn’t really needed.
Where can’t you be in melee? Lucifron? You can be in melee.
Magmadar? Can’t be in melee, but you don’t need Judgement of Wisdom because he dies before mana is a problem.
Gehennas? You can be in melee.
Garr? You don’t Judgement the adds, and you can be in melee next to Garr without issue.
Baron Geddon? Can be in melee, but have to run out occasionally. Better to not be in melee. Fight is so short it doesn’t matter.
Shazzrah? Can’t be in melee, but fight ends in under a minute. Mana isn’t an issue.
Sulfuron Harbinger? Can be in melee. Don’t judge adds, anyway.
Majordomo? Can be in melee.
Ragnaros? Can be in melee, just have to move out when they do.
Onyxia? Can be in melee (her hitbox is MASSIVE).
Or just replace the healer, anyway, get a DPS, and continue using the Warrior tank, because damage taken isn’t really a concern.
The “actual resultant experience” is that Prot Paladin is terrible. The logs reflect this.
I just use the math to show you why that is the case, not to theorize why that may be the case.
I don’t need to deal 400 DPS to deal more TPS than a Paladin.
My current TPS is only exceeding by GBoK on 10+ people EVERY GCD. I’m not even full BiS threat gear yet, either.
Yes.
So because I correctly point out that a Holy Paladin can bring Judgement, I have no experience?
If you cannot afford two GCDs every 40 seconds, your raid has some serious issues, and a Prot Paladin will not solve them.
For the most part, Judgement of Wisdom isn’t even a useful debuff, anyway, due to how fast the fights are.
I’m just pointing out that, if you want Judgement of Wisdom, a Holy Paladin can provide it. Saying that is an upside to Prot Paladin is just wrong. That is an upside to Paladin in general.
I don’t think you understand. Druids and Warriors are already capable of generating threat that exceeds the amount of threat generated by DPS.
Your reading comprehension needs some work. I said it is possible to generate more than than THE DPS CAN GENERATE WITHOUT HOLDING BACK.
As in the DPS are not having to throttle their DPS. They cannot do any more DPS. They are already doing as much as they possibly can… and Druids and Warriors are still capable of holding aggro.
No, they don’t. You’re playing with bad tanks if that is the case.
Sure. If you want to hold the record for longest kill of a raid boss, more DPS isn’t better.
For everyone else, killing the bosses faster is the easiest metric by which to compare your performance. The other metric is damage taken and deaths. If no one is taking unnecessary damage (the mechanics are easy so this is achieved without issue), and no one is dying (they shouldn’t be if you do it properly), the only thing left is DPS.
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Are you still here arguing with these people? It’s been like 6 months. You must work a desk job.
Did you see their “spelladin” meta they advertising for months does actually half the dps of the straight AP/Crit build.
So wonderful.
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It was dead for a while, but every so often someone replies to me and summons me back to this thread.
If you mean on the forums in general, I’ll be here as long as I’m actively playing Classic.
It’s about on-par, actually. It’ll get better once more spell power is available to them, but it’s certainly not the “as much DPS as a Fury Warrior” as it was advertised to be.
Since you’ve resorted to ad hominem, your argument is invalid.
Regardless, I disagree with these subjective metrics you’re using to evaluate the quality of a raid. You have failed to establish why these factors should matter to me or my raid, you invalidated your own argument, and your final point is moot.
Your contribution to the discussion is now mere trolling until you correct your errors.
Your using just GBoK values. Thats the issue.
Paladins also employ Rank 1 HS + Sanctuary augmented by Righteous Fury.
In addition still have auto attack with raid buffs.
And yes you need to deliver 400 Bear DPS exclusively with maul to deliver that.
Those same logs would have shown that Bears in Vanilla were horrible as well.
You yourself argued against Bear tanks early…and annoyingly often…but it took post after post from Plague, Fasc, and myself to argue against your perspective.
Then when you actually tanked as a Bear, that experience at the raid level was the linchpin.
Telling me that something can be done easy…because it looks like that on paper, doesn’t make it so when your actually doing it.
Telling me that Holy Paladins will melee or only use JoW at the exact moment JoW is dropping…from a class that is a complete spam healer, is incongruous to reality.
No, because you have no experience is why you have no experience…I thought that was rather self evident.
And no you weren’t correct, you were oversimplifying yet again.
Anything you dismiss or disagree with you determine as inconsequential…any minor gain from your perspective you deem critical. An example:
25 players averaging 400 DPS.
1 tank generating 200 DPS less.
12000 less damage per minute vs 600,000+ raid damage per minute.
120 sec fight.
2.4 sec diffential
And yet for you that’s a game breaking, over the top talking point!
Mountain meet Molehill.
JoW scales to rate of cast.
The more you cast in a given time the more mana return you receive in the same interval.
Burn style fights with chain casting deliver strong amounts of mana return even in a 2 minute fight.
JoW is a lower value now, but still useful.
However, even on Rag, it can be an appreciable value over 2m. Length of fights in BWL are even longer, and it can and will make more of an impact.
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What are you even going on about? Threat beyond the DPS ceiling is unnecessary due to the binary nature of threat. The end. I have no clue what you think you’re contradicting but phew…
It is actually objectively provable that the more DPS you can bring, the better. If you can drop a Healer or two, that is better. If you can improve your TPS so that DPS can go harder than before, that is better.
However, on the other end is the ability for a Tank to vastly exceed TPS requirements, thus wasted, much in the way extra healing is wasted.
This isn’t complicated.
What is your issue?
The issue is that you’re wrong.
Additionally, your argument is invalid because it relies on an unsubstantiated premise that more DPS is always better.
Both of those reasons are fundamental flaws with your argument and I have issue when players make illogical claims on the forums to force their opinions onto other people’s play.
Now that you have resorted to an ad hominem fallacy, you invalidated your argument. You also violated the rules of this forum with your insult.
Claim without justification.
More DPS is always better. No other metric endlessly scales. It isn’t even a hard problem.
If you’re going to play arm-chair logician, at least learn the difference between an ad hominem fallacy, and an ad hominem argument. One is informally invalid, the other is not.
It was already invalid. Your personal attack on the participants in this thread qualifies as fallacious in this context. Regardless, you’ve been reported and the mods can take it from here.
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Funny thing is, I didn’t name you in my post. I didn’t name anyone. But spam abusing the report system will definitely catch the mods’ attention, just not in the way you want.
What ad hominem? lol
The metrics are not subjective, buddy. The value you put in those metrics is subjective, but the metrics themselves are not.
Surely you understand the difference, yes?
I was never arguing whether they should or not not matter to your raid. I merely argued that, in those regards, Prot Paladin is objectively inferior.
So because you don’t care about your DPS, DTPS, TPS, longevity, reagent cost to hold aggro, I’m trolling?
Spare me.
No, I’m not.
But you can work out the exact math on it, if you’d like. I’d genuinely be interested in seeing the complete calculations of your TPS.
Not quite. The logs show that our DTPS is close to half of that of a Warrior’s even when wearing our DPS gear, let alone when we were our mitigation gear.
The logs show that our DPS is inferior, true, but only one exceedingly short fights where Death Wish and Recklessness can both be used.
Every other time, our DPS is on-par with Warriors.
Do some actual analysis of the logs for yourself. Also, “would have shown that Bears in Vanilla were horrible as well”? I don’t care about vanilla; we’re talking about Classic.
Feral Druids were widely understood to be terrible in vanilla for a number of reasons. Itemization, talents, and spell balancing. Namely Dire Bear Form being buffed to grants massive amounts of extra armor, talents to improve our threat and mitigation, and so on.
Also, the theorycrafting was conducted under the assumption that Defense capping was necessary; it isn’t. Genuine arguments used to include “What if you crushed twice in a row, then crit?” To which the obvious answer from any experienced tank in Classic would be “Then we mitigate almost 3/4th the damage with our Armor, have 7k HP, and get healed in between the hits.”
No, I’m telling you it’s easy because it is. That is based off actual experience, not some theorycrafting.
Maintaining Wisdom is not hard.
I think you can afford to spend two global cooldowns. Yes, you’re a “spam healer,” but if you’re assigned to keep up Judgement of Wisdom, that is your priority.
There isn’t that much healing needed in current content, anyway.
So is this an argument from authority, or what? Because I don’t play Prot Paladin, I don’t know what I’m talking about?
As if I have to have tanked the raids on a Prot Paladin to know that a Holy Paladin can also bring Judgement.
C’mon, you can do better.
Or, as you keep ignoring, what actually happens.
Officers don’t care about the performance of the raid members and invite any and all specs.
Prot Paladin deals 200 less DPS.
20 out of the 25 DPS are doing 200 less DPS.
5 DPS are doing respectable DPS, and get sick of carrying everyone else.
Healers go OOM because the fights take so long.
Group struggles more as a result. They can probably clear content anyway, but it takes them 4 hours instead of 1.
Okay? But if you aren’t running out of mana, restoring your mana is useless and wastes a debuff slot that could’ve been used to improve your DPS, reduce damage taken, or improve healing (only example I can think of for the latter is JoL).
No, if you are not running out of mana, it has zero value, not lower value.
Ragnaros dies in under 2 minutes.
They may well be, and I reserve my judgements for then.
I suspect the fights will last longer and JoW will gain some value, but DPS will also have improved greatly by then, as well.
It’s happened a few times before. Paladins have a tendency to report anything they don’t like.
A bit like a witch hunt. Burn the heretic. That sort of thing. The post will be reviewed, nothing in the post violates the code of conduct, so it’ll be restored.
Don’t worry about it.
Does anyone die? No.
Do people take more damage? No.
Does the boss die faster? Yes.
If those criteria are met, DPS is better.
By what other metric do you compare performance? Also, do you not think it a bit ironic to claim that it is an unsubstantiated claim to say that more DPS is better, while making the unsubstantiated claim it isn’t better and we are wrong?
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