Righteous Fury Mechanics == OP Paladin Threat (1k+ TPS)

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

Tanking isn’t just about generating threat. You also have to mitigate damage.

Ok. A shield is worth 3200 - 4800 armor depending on progression. A DW warrior can’t shield block which means you are rocking those CB’s like the other tanks. Since you are swinging 2 weapons, depending on your weapons’ speed you get 2-4.23x the number of parry hastes. If you are fishing for enrage procs for more threat, that is a minimum 1 crit per 12 seconds up to 3-4 depending on luck/parry/crits. Death wish decreases armor another 20%. Honestly, switching out for druids is probably the proper thing to do at this point.

But they are absolutely not good. They take too much damage

If you are truly wanting to be constructive and helpful, why not give us some numbers and quantitative evidence to back up your claims. Your side of the argument brought it up, therefore your side of the argument has the obligation to edify us. If you want to follow academic standard anyway.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

Overall, I’m arguing against the advocacy for Prot Paladins

When was anyone advocating for Prot paladin use over warrior or druid? I probably missed it somewhere after post 100 when my focus started flagging. This whole post and the arguments for paladins are focused on what they can do. It’s common knowledge that they are overall worse than warriors and druids. It took ~250 posts to get to get even a surface level comparison of quantifiable threat between druid and paladin and some health numbers between warrior and druid?. In the beginning there was a shallow argument about consumable costs with no comparison at all to quantify the demerit.

[Theloras-herod]

unlike you, we’ve actually theory crafted everything friendo

you should join the theory crafting discord - https://discord.gg/7ces3kZ

you might actually learn something

[Thorgrim-pagle]

unlike you, we’ve actually theory crafted everything friendo

Unlike you, I’m actually 60 and playing the game. Eventually you have to put the theories to the test, and thus far they have all been found lacking.

[Thorgrim-pagle]

Ok. A shield is worth 3200 - 4800 armor depending on progression. A DW warrior can’t shield block which means you are rocking those CB’s like the other tanks. Since you are swinging 2 weapons, depending on your weapons’ speed you get 2-4.23x the number of parry hastes. If you are fishing for enrage procs for more threat, that is a minimum 1 crit per 12 seconds up to 3-4 depending on luck/parry/crits. Death wish decreases armor another 20%. Honestly, switching out for druids is probably the proper thing to do at this point.

A guild using a DW fury tank isn’t working on progression. They outgear the content and are looking to clear it as quickly as possible. They are also relying heavily on world buffs and very heavy consumable usage. This is something that only the top 1% of guilds do, and these are your super min/max tryhard guilds

If you are truly wanting to be constructive and helpful, why not give us some numbers and quantitative evidence to back up your claims. Your side of the argument brought it up, therefore your side of the argument has the obligation to edify us. If you want to follow academic standard anyway.

I believe I have, but I can do it again.

Defensive stance gives 10% damage reduction. Warriors can maintain 100% up time on shield block, meaning they never eat a crit or crush. Paladins have access to very little defensive gear.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Skarm had mitigation. He may not have had defense(not needed anyways), or even a shield, but he was somehow mitigating damage. Based on what little I know of him, I assume it was with an insane amount of world buffs and consumables, I also doubt he did this wearing his pre raid bis.

It’s mostly with Armor, Defense, Dodge, and Parry. You wear your tank gear, for the most part, but just don’t wear a shield.

The only thing dual wield tanking loses is the armor from the shield (it’s no small amount, but speaking from experience, you don’t need more than 5-6k armor to tank MC) and Shield Block. If you aren’t dying while dual wield tanking, then the mitigation/avoidance you get from using a shield is unnecessary.

A Prot Paladin will mitigate more damage than a Fury/Prot warrior dual-wielding, but a Fury/Prot Warrior can put on a shield if they need to mitigate damage. In doing so, even with their less mitigation-focused gearing, they will mitigate more damage than a Prot Paladin would, while doing more DPS to boot.

I also doubt he did this wearing his pre raid bis.

He was definitely dual wield tanking in Classic to obtain his pre-BiS. I don’t know if he was dual-wield tanking in raids, but our tanks are definitely doing it, and even in pre-raid BiS, you should be fine to do so.

It will be harder, yes, and you might need to flask, but it is possible.

he was mashing /sit to maintain permanent Enrage bro

how do I know this?

##Skarm05/20/2019
I’m going off of tanking naxx twice a week on both toons for about 6 months, both with bis gear
And yeah I/sit to enrage

None of that matters because it wasn’t in Classic.

TLDR - a Prot Paladin has more mitigation than a dual wield Fury Warrior tank while putting out more threat than them at the same time.

And lower longevity (not a problem currently with how short the fights are) and much, MUCH less DPS.

If a Fury/Prot Warrior can hold aggro with their threat, more is not needed. At that point, you need DPS.

Honestly, switching out for druids is probably the proper thing to do at this point.

Generally speaking, I agree. However, if a Fury/Prot Warrior has Recklessness up, they should definitely be the one tanking.

Fights like Shazzrah and Golemagg are perfect for Fury/Prot.

When was anyone advocating for Prot paladin use over warrior or druid?

Well, you specifically were doing so earlier:

Who said anything about giving up a fury warrior?

Well, by bringing a Prot Paladin to tank, you’re not having a Fury/Prot warrior tank instead.

Exactly.

I guess I could be charitable and assume you just meant that, if you brought a Prot Paladin, that’s what would happen, not that you were saying that a group should bring one?

But what is the point in a thread detailing the possibility of tanking as a Prot Paladin if not to convince people they should take them? And if you take them, you are choosing to not take a Druid or Warrior instead.

In raids you could maybe bring both, all three, or whatever, but no matter how you spin it, that Prot Paladin is a slot that could’ve been filled by a Druid or Warrior.

In the beginning there was a shallow argument about consumable costs with no comparison at all to quantify the demerit

Oh, jeez. This again.

The original criticism wasn’t about the cost of the reagents, as I’ve explained numerous times now throughout this thread. The criticism was that, even using a silly gimmick where you have to spend reagents to do what other roles do for free, you still have other issues.

[Theloras-herod]

Unlike you, I’m actually 60 and playing the game. Eventually you have to put the theories to the test, and thus far they have all been found lacking.

we have over 2,000 Paladins in the theory crafting discord friend and we put everything to the test on the beta and once the game went live:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Mm35UbThStzV-fxCwy1kK0QleiZCQTqryVz1qbsyt8g/

[Valarkin-pagle]

The only thing dual wield tanking loses is the armor from the shield (it’s no small amount, but speaking from experience, you don’t need more than 5-6k armor to tank MC) and Shield Block. If you aren’t dying while dual wield tanking, then the mitigation/avoidance you get from using a shield is unnecessary.

All your doing is shifting the burden to your healers.

A 6k tank with a 2hander or DW’ing is nothing more than a punching bag that holds threat.

If it works thats fine, but lets not pretend that your healers aren’t the ones making it possible…not the warrior.

A Prot Paladin will mitigate more damage than a Fury/Prot warrior dual-wielding, but a Fury/Prot Warrior can put on a shield if they need to mitigate damage. In doing so, even with their less mitigation-focused gearing, they will mitigate more damage than a Prot Paladin would, while doing more DPS to boot.

People need to make up their minds.

Your forgoing any semblance of tank parameters, dropping 2500+ AC, dropping Block rate and Block values, completely opening yourself up to crushes, then…

The Warrior is doing more damage?! Who cares?!

If your raid is dropping a boss in 2m or less tank damage is meaningless…utterly meaningless!

A Prot Paladins with Rank 1 Holy Shield, Sanctuary, and a good 1 hander will put out 100 dps while Blessing tanking. Who cares if a Warrior or Druid does more…

So you add 3s to a fight…that’s not measurable…thats minutia.

If a Fury/Prot Warrior can hold aggro with their threat, more is not needed. At that point, you need DPS.

Not from your tank. You need to not die…easier for a Prot Paladins than a Fury/Prot utilizing DW or 2h, and you need to pin threat.

The entire idea of burning current bosses is that tank’s damage become irrelevant…its not important and its not worth measuring against an entire raid doing that much damage.

Paladins threat entering MC, using Blessings, is insanely high, and their tank profile remains intact using that strategy.

Fights are short enough that mana isn’t an issue.

They also have the advantage of not requiring melee proximity to generate threat during transitions or movement phases.

This holds true through all of MC and through BWL.

However because its a static value of threat…that threat will become eroded down the line.

Paladin threat doesn’t scale, even with 600 +spellpower and 300 MP/5, even if you could retain your tanking profile…Paladin’s don’t scale enough beyond these static values.

However atm, in current content, Paladins are exceptional tanks as long as your raid structure supports it.

Any argument to the contrary is nitpicking nonsense that isn’t even consistent with reality.

Paladins generate more threat than a DW or 2H fury/prot warrior.
Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H fury/prot warrior.
Your raid force is killing mobs in 120 seconds or less.

And the argument is the MT needs to do more DPS?!..really?, that’s all you got?

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

All your doing is shifting the burden to your healers.

So?

If they aren’t running out of mana by the time the fight ends, they can afford to be casting more heals.

If it works thats fine, but lets not pretend that your healers aren’t the ones making it possible…not the warrior.

That’s the same as tanking with a shield. The healers are still the one keeping the tank alive.

Your forgoing any semblance of tank parameters, dropping 2500+ AC, dropping Block rate and Block values, completely opening yourself up to crushes, then…

The Warrior is doing more damage?! Who cares?!

Good raiders care, that’s who.

More damage means more threat. That means the DPS can go all out and not have to hold back. That means bosses die faster and healers have to spend less mana.

If your raid is dropping a boss in 2m or less tank damage is meaningless…utterly meaningless!

The only way a raid is dropping a boss in 2 minutes or less is if everyone is concerned with their damage dealt, tanks included.

You don’t get sub 2 minute kill timers by being concerned with the fact healers have to actually press their buttons more often.

So you add 3s to a fight…that’s not measurable…thats minutia.

That sort of attitude what leads to kills taking so long, resulting in healers running out of mana and forcing tanks to wear mitigation so they need less healing.

There’s a reason the best parsing Paladin tank has a kill time on Magmadar of 1 minute 58 seconds and the best parsing Warrior tank has a kill time of 44 seconds.

Not from your tank. You need to not die

That is already the case. Next.

The entire idea of burning current bosses is that tank’s damage become irrelevant…its not important and its not worth measuring against an entire raid doing that much damage.

You got it wrong.

The idea of burning bosses is that the tank’s damage taken becomes irrelevant. That’s why they use Death Wish and Recklessness even when tanking.

Paladins threat entering MC, using Blessings, is insanely high, and their tank profile remains intact using that strategy.

Cool, but their DPS is lower. The higher threat is nice, yes, but if a Fury/Prot Warrior is also to hold aggro with lower threat, then doing more is unnecessary. More DPS is better.

You gain literally nothing by doing extra threat above the threshold. Either you generate enough threat to hold aggro or you don’t.

Fights are short enough that mana isn’t an issue.

EXACTLY. That’s why stacking mitigation is less useful.

That said…

a Fury/Prot Warrior can put on a shield if they need to mitigate damage

… and then they are doing more DPS and mitigating more damage than a Prot Paladin.

If you meant mana isn’t an issue for the Prot Paladin, you’re sort of right. They still have more issues than a healer would have, due to having less mana, but they can get by well enough with how fast the fights are.

They also have the advantage of not requiring melee proximity to generate threat during transitions or movement phases

Totally irrelevant for all current content except Onyxia, since you’re in melee by virtue of having aggro on the boss.

However atm, in current content, Paladins are exceptional tanks as long as your raid structure supports it.

Yeah, they’re exceptional. Exceptionally bad.

Paladins generate more threat than a DW or 2H fury/prot warrior.

Only if you’re stacking 10+ of a single class. A min/max guild could very well do that with Warriors, for example, but a min/max guild wouldn’t bring a Prot Paladin.

Either way, the extra threat is meaningless if a DW Fury/Prot Warrior can hold aggro with their TPS.

Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H fury/prot warrior.

Which is inconsequential. As long as the Fury/Prot Warrior isn’t dying and the healers aren’t going OOM before the fight ends, the damage the tank takes is meaningless.

And the argument is the MT needs to do more DPS?!..really?, that’s all you got?

As opposed to… what? Not doing more DPS? Yeah, why not?

[Valarkin-pagle]

So?

If they aren’t running out of mana by the time the fight ends, they can afford to be casting more heals.

What part of “If it works thats fine” wasn’t grasped.

Are you so interested in disputing anything that you start making things up now?!

That’s the same as tanking with a shield. The healers are still the one keeping the tank alive.

No it isn’t

Your placing far more burden on your healers than tanking with a shield.

A 5 man instance drop shield with toughness is 2500 AC. A Prot Paladin will have untalented Devo aura, plus block. At the +defense cap, even without Redoubt triggering at all, Paladins will have a near 50% block rate up with Holy Shield.

Thats a near 50% boost in AC and then Block…those aren’t small values…those are very appreciable values.

Hence my statement about shifting the burden to healers.

Good raiders care, that’s who.

More damage means more threat.

No.

Clearly your not reading. Paladin Bless tanking relies on Blessing to generate threat not damage.

They still do about 100 DPS with melee, raid buffs, and Rank 1 Holy Shield + Sanctuary.

Let me be clear:

Right now a Prot Paladin will generate more TPS than a Druid or Warrior in current content.

That means the DPS can go all out and not have to hold back. That means bosses die faster and healers have to spend less mana.

And yet Paladins start with a mammoth threat lead entering MC…and retain their full tanking profile and have no ramp time required.

That sort of attitude what leads to kills taking so long, resulting in healers running out of mana and forcing tanks to wear mitigation so they need less healing.

The Paladin will require less healing, even with a 2s or 3s longer fight.

When a Bear or Warrior does at best just 250 to 300 DPS more than a Paladins in a 2 minute fight thats less than 1/4 of 1% aggregate raid damage.

Thats a rounding error, and nothing more.

Making its seem like 12000 damage per minute means much when your raid force is putting out over 1/2 a million or more in that time is just sad.

There’s a reason the best parsing Paladin tank has a kill time on Magmadar of 1 minute 58 seconds and the best parsing Warrior tank has a kill time of 44 seconds.

Thats blatant sophistry and truly a pathetic argument.

Paladins generate more threat currently, as long as raid structure supports it. Which means Paladin TPS is not holding back raid DPS.

So like that single tanking Warrior or Bear DPS magically cuts the fight time in half does it?!

Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H Warrior tanking and generate more threat.

Most guilds that min/max use Warriors in overwhelming numbers Many won’t even use Druids let alone Paladins.

Those are the same guilds that demand high end DPS.

Opportunity does NOT equal capability.

Quite frankly I’m even surprised you tried that blatant nonsense argument, it was rather pathetic.

As opposed to… what? Not doing more DPS? Yeah, why not?

Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H Warrior.

They generate more threat…10 of 1 class is not required to reach that threshold with current threat levels.

Paladins take less damage while generating more threat.

Paladin tanking will add 1s to every 60s of a fight in duration. Thats it.

Bears and Warriors are NOT magically dishing 1k damage.

Your flagrant need to exaggerate any perceived Paladin weakness into a full blow issue, while summarily dismissing any Paladin advantage is almost pathological in nature.

Oh Paladins also bring raid wide JoW and Devo Aura to the tank group for utility…in addition to Blessing of Sanctuary for the tanks.

But I’m sure you will dismiss that because it doesn’t fit your irrational oration.

Paladin tanking right now is fine.

It will stay fine through BWL.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

What part of “If it works thats fine” wasn’t grasped.

What part of “so?” wasn’t grasped?

What is the problem with putting more burden on the healers?

No it isn’t

Your placing far more burden on your healers than tanking with a shield.

Yes, it is.

Even if a tank is wearing a shield, they will die if a healer isn’t healing them.

No.

Clearly your not reading. Paladin Bless tanking relies on Blessing to generate threat not damage.

???

You were talking about dual-wield tanks doing more DPS and asking who cares. Do you even remember what you said? I quoted it so you could see what I responded to.

Let me be clear:

Right now a Prot Paladin will generate more TPS than a Druid or Warrior in current content.

Let me be clear: that doesn’t matter, because the extra threat they are doing is worthless.

You either generate enough TPS to maintain aggro, or you don’t. If you can hold aggro, extra threat doesn’t help. Extra DPS, however, does.

A Fury/Prot Warrior can hold aggro and does more DPS.

And yet Paladins start with a mammoth threat lead entering MC…and retain their full tanking profile and have no ramp time required.

Over Warriors, sure. Not over Druids.

The Paladin will require less healing, even with a 2s or 3s longer figh

Doesn’t matter, as I’ve explained.

Healers are not running out of mana. Requiring more healing is not a problem.

When a Bear or Warrior does at best just 250 to 300 DPS more than a Paladins in a 2 minute fight thats less than 1/4 of 1% aggregate raid damage.

That’s a rather significant increase per person, though.

You’re the same kind of person who argues that it doesn’t matter if Ret does 1/4th the DPS of Fury Warriors, aren’t you?

Yes, a single person does not contribute very much to the speed of kills, but they can contribute nonetheless, and if everyone contributes similarly, the kills are much faster.

Thats blatant sophistry and truly a pathetic argument.

I don’t think you know what sophistry is.

Paladins generate more threat currently, as long as raid structure supports it.

So what?

Which means Paladin TPS is not holding back raid DPS.

Assuming the raid structure supports it, sure, but they are doing less DPS, and any group bringing a Prot Paladin is probably not concerned with players performing well.

So like that single tanking Warrior or Bear DPS magically cuts the fight time in half does it?!

No. The mentality does, though.

Groups willing to bring a Prot Paladin are probably not the types to require decent performances from their members, which leads to slower kills.

Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H Warrior tanking and generate more threat.

Taking less damage doesn’t matter. Generating more threat than necessary doesn’t matter.

If you don’t die when tanking, you gear for DPS.

Most guilds that min/max use Warriors in overwhelming numbers Many won’t even use Druids let alone Paladins.

I wonder why…
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#class=Druid&spec=Guardian
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#class=Paladin&spec=Protection
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/1000#class=Warrior&spec=Protection

Paladins take less damage than a DW or 2H Warrior.

That doesn’t matter.

They generate more threat…10 of 1 class is not required to reach that threshold with current threat levels.

Actually, if you’re not stacking 10 of a class, you’re doing less threat than a Feral Druid.

Paladins take less damage while generating more threat.

You keep repeating yourself. It’s really tedious to read.

Paladins take less damage than dual-wielding Fury/Prot Warriors, yes. They take more damage than any other build, though.

Bears and Warriors are NOT magically dishing 1k damage.

Warriors are, actually.

Your flagrant need to exaggerate any perceived Paladin weakness into a full blow issue

There’s no need to exaggerate. They’re the worst tank in every regard except threat, and that will change as gear improves because the vast majority of their threat is a fixed amount built into their spells.

And the only reason that is even the case is because of a ridiculous gimmick taking advantage of a bug that existed in vanilla.

Paladin tanking right now is fine.

“Fine” meaning it can do the content, sure. It’s still sub-par.

It’s “fine” in the same way Ret Paladin is “fine” for DPS, or Balance Druid is “fine” for DPS: much worse at their role, but the content is so easy it doesn’t matter.

[Rhumsy-grobbulus]

Valarkin I’m with you here I dont get why he cannot an refuses to see any upside to this. Its like it has effected his ego or something. A wall of ignorance.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Valarkin I’m with you here I dont get why he cannot an refuses to see any upside to this.

Because there is no upside to using a Paladin over a Druid or Warrior.

[Clikerultima-kurinnaxx]

Mental illness. He’s been like this everywhere as far as I know.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Mental illness.

Nice.

You have to resort to personal attacks because you have no arguments. Enjoy the vacation.

[Feelthewrath-burning-blade (Feelthewrath)]

This is getting spicy

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Ohshiftson is one of those no-life trolls who never left their parents’ basement.

Report your family to the police, dude. They’re enablers.

So do you have any actual arguments, or are you just here to troll?

[Feelthewrath-burning-blade (Feelthewrath)]

Is it wrong to have a Paladin tank? Sure he may not be the main tank but I’m sure he’d be some help at a certain fight.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Is it wrong to have a Paladin tank?

Wrong in what way?

Obviously whether it’s “right” to have a Paladin tank depends on your priorities. Objectively speaking, they aren’t as good at their role as a Druid or Warrior is. However, if you’re wanting to challenge yourself, roleplay, purposely make a guild of “meme specs,” etc, Prot Paladin might be the right choice.

Sure he may not be the main tank but I’m sure he’d be some help at a certain fight.

They would be less of a help than their Druid or Warrior counterparts. They’re obviously more help than an empty raid slot, but that’s not really saying much.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

an excess of threat is not as good as enough threat and lots more DPS.

What do you mean by this? There is no such thing as “excess” threat…unless you hit a DPS ceiling without hitting the threat ceiling. Threat is the ceiling of DPS, if you have more threat you can do more dps.