Righteous Fury Mechanics == OP Paladin Threat (1k+ TPS)

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

What I noticed was that, when I pointed out optimizing a raid for the maximum DPS was a subjective choice rather than being objectively “better,”

Again, you have not been reading what I’ve been saying.

I’m going to say this one more time, and then I’ll ignore every continued attempt you make to misrepresent my arguments.

Warriors objectively deal more DPS than Paladins.
The value of that DPS is subjective.

If you can hold aggro with 1k TPS, TPS beyond 1k has objectively zero value.
DPS always has some value. That doesn’t mean it’s more valuable than EVERYTHING ELSE.
Something that has some value is objectively better than something with objectively zero value.

The only way you can argue otherwise is if you believe DPS has zero value. Do you really want to argue that point?

you personally insulted my intelligence and violated the forum rules.

No, I didn’t, which is why the reports were dismissed and my post was unhidden.

So you’re now you’re saying that if players want to prioritize different aspects of raiding than what you’re claiming is best, that’s ok with you?

Of course. It’s been that way from the very beginning. Read through the thread.

Are you trying to “prove” that paladin tanking isn’t viable or isn’t optimal?

I’ve never said they aren’t viable.

I suppose you could say I’m proving that it isn’t optimal, but everyone here knows that, I think.

You’ve been making off-topic arguments for days now.

“Paladins can deal TONS of threat because of this bug!”
“Okay, but they still have other issues.”
“THAT’S OFF-TOPIC!”

Are you sure? It’s about a bug that causes Righteous Fury to affect GBoK and allow for very high amounts of threat.

The implications of that are worth discussing, I’d say, and I felt it necessary to point out that doing high amounts of threat and being able to hold aggro doesn’t make Paladins good at tanking because there are numerous other aspects of tanking that they are weaker in.

If all you really want to discuss is “should the bug be left in the game,” why have you been arguing with me about anything other than that?

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

You can get ~420 Defense if you gear specifically for it, but critical strikes (and crushing blows even moreso) are not really as dangerous as you’d expect.

For Druids to be sure, but my specific example was Broodlord who has a notably slow and hard hitting attack speed and a nasty special that can Critically Strike.

You could focus more on stamina at the expense of avoidance, but you can already make up for the lower health by using defensive consumables instead of offensive ones (since the majority of their threat is not from actually attacking, so their buff slots are not taken up by the same kinds of buffs a Druid or Warrior would want, e.g. Mongoose).

Eh this is sorta moot in Classic where you aren’t limited by consumable slots really. If you want to stack several different elixirs, jujus, and a flask you can.

Allowing a Prot Paladin to tank is NOT a raid wide contagious STD that somehow reduces everyone’s DPS

The raid that freely allows a Protection Paladin also freely allows minimal/no consumable usage, PvP specs that just use baseline class abilities to push through, maintains subpar strategies, etc, etc. You can be hyperbolic all you like, but allowance for mediocrity is pervasive.

Paladin tanking is more than effective from a mitigation perspective.

No.

Paladin threat is more than effective until AQ40.

No.

You lose minimal DPS measured against raid wide values, that’s it.

Again with the allowances for mediocrity.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Eh this is sorta moot in Classic where you aren’t limited by consumable slots really.

I am already at a point where I have to drop off defensive buffs.

I have currently dropped:
Blood Boil
Blessing of Sanctuary
Elixir of Fortitude
Rumsey Rum Black Label
5 Resists (to shoulders)
Power Word: Fortitude

If I don’t do that, a Renew/Regrowth/Rejuvenation/Inspiration will knock off world buffs.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

5 Resists (to shoulders)

Wait… wut?

I thought they fixed passive stuff… also what is your total buff list that you’re dropping Fort?

[Theloras-herod]

If I don’t do that, a Renew/Regrowth/Rejuvenation/Inspiration will knock off world buffs.

for the love of elune don’t stack 3x Power Infusions and 3x Innervates then!

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Fasciae-fairbanks

Wait… wut?

I thought they fixed passive stuff

Enchants applied by items still count towards the total.

@Kaivax

WoW Classic

• Enchantments on gear should no longer count as helpful auras. They now count as passive auras.

There are still some enchantments occupying helpful slots – notably, the Arcanum enchants that will come from Dire Maul and other enchantments that are applied via item rather than via the enchanting profession. This was the case in our 1.12 reference.

@Theloras-herod

for the love of elune don’t stack 3x Power Infusions and 3x Innervates then!

Hey, man, I’m not the one doing it!

[Theloras-herod]

Hey, man, I’m not the one doing it!

i know - just being cheeky

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Fasciae-fairbanks

also what is your total buff list that you’re dropping Fort?

I am accounting for a lot of temporary buffs, just to avoid anything ever being knocked off.

Realistically I still have some buff slots left, but I’d rather be safe.

[Theloras-herod]

i’d laugh if u ever knocked off Dire Bear Form lolz

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

i’d laugh if u ever knocked off Dire Bear Form

I think the buffs have a priority system similar to debuffs. From my experience, world buffs are the first ones knocked off.

Prior to the bugfix, the passive aura effects from our gear were being knocked off, e.g. “+2% Hit.”

I think Dire Bear Form is one of the highest priority buffs, similar to Taunt being a highest priority debuff. Realistically, I don’t think it can be pushed off.

[Askalon-pagle]

I think

You don’t.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

You don’t

Do you have any arguments, or are you just here to troll?

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

What exactly is a Paladin wearing at the end of BWL that is going to grant them mitigation anywhere near a Druid while being several thousand armor behind the Druid?

Well if we want to use the numbers so elegantly provided by our unbiased friend here:

7,775 Armor
391 Defense
8.04% Miss
21.53% Dodge
12.04% Parry

With buffs and talents thats up to 15000+ armor or 72+% reduction. It’s an ungodly amount of dodge though…are we sure that’s unbuffed? Anyway, if we forgo block as it’s mitigation contribution is variable we are left with… I can’t do it, let’s go with 11.53% dodge instead. That leaves 31.61% mitigation from gear. Combine those together to get 80.85% mitigation.

Let’s say feral gets to the armor cap at 75% then you have the

21.81% Avoidance

to get 80.45% mitigation. I said mitigation was similar didn’t I?

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

With buffs and talents thats up to 15000+ armor or 72+% reduction.

LOL what? How are you DOUBLING your Armor with “talents and buffs”

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

With buffs and talents thats up to 15000+ armor or 72+% reduction.

That includes talents.

I’m not sure what buffs would give you 7.3k armor.
Devotion Aura - 919 Armor
Mark of the Wild - 385 Armor
Elixir of Superior Defense - 450 Armor

What else am I missing?

It’s an ungodly amount of dodge though…are we sure that’s unbuffed?

That was with the highest mitigation/avoidance gear I could find. It sacrifices some Armor and Defense in favor of higher avoidance.

For example, Unmelting Ice Girdle over Deathbone. 1 less Defense, but 14 Agility is close to 0.75% dodge. Dodge is just the most common form of avoidance found on gear because of Agility and such.

If you dropped some dodge, you could gain Defense, Stamina, or Armor.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

What else am I missing?

Inspiration, but that’s not even close to granting that kind of deficit…

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Inspiration, but that’s not even close to granting that kind of deficit

That’s not a permanent buff, so I wouldn’t include it, anyway.

At best, that just puts the soft cap on armor at 13,812.

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

How are you DOUBLING your Armor with “talents and buffs”

Devotion Aura - 918 Armor
Mark of the Wild - 385 Armor
Elixir of Superior Defense - 450 Armor

Scroll of Protection - 240
Stoneshield potion - 2000
Inspiration - 25%
Toughness - 10%
Agility - minimum of 200

I had this same issue trying to convince people before classic release that druids were a valid tank that could tank almost anything (if you lose the nefarian class call lottery tank = dead). It was really hard to convince people that “not warrior” = good enough to down classic content with available knowledge. “If they ain’t better at everything, then they ain’t worth the raid spot.” That kind of thing.

That’s not a permanent buff, so I wouldn’t include it, anyway.

At best, that just puts the soft cap on armor at 13,812.

It should have close to 100% uptime with buffs for raids.

[Bearevement-mankrik]

To rely on a buggy mechanic to make yourself feasible seems a little out there…on top of that it won’t even show your correct threat on threat meters, so how can dps judge when to go hard or not?

[Rhumsy-grobbulus]

Buggy I think would imply erratic, or unreliable in general.

GBoK spam is 100% reliable, 100% not erratic, 100% not resistible. It is literally perfect threat gen, the model of consistency.