I’ve been on record commiserating with the Night Elf situation quite a bit, so you can miss me with that broad brush tribalism play. But this is the same argument you’ve shoehorned into every thread I’ve seen you appear in, so I’m not terribly surprised. Might want to find a new drum.
9 Likes
I would like an update for these lands to look like Transylvania or Germany’s Black Forest for a new Lordaeron a spooky undead area where the Light doesn’t fully radiate, and the shadows seem to follow you wherever you go. Where ghosts linger in the air and you feel like you constantly have to be on-guard.
A place where Eastweald has transformed from its Scourge past, but to a new age for both the living and undead. One where life is returning, but something isn’t quite right… Google the Black Forest after dark. A land of twilight, but showing signs of life during the day, and undeath at night. I hear you man, but we have to make peace with the lore before any updates to Lordaeron.
1 Like
I want the Alliance to take action against those that are killing them. I want the faction to be as it was advertised, that its a collective group of equal kingdoms that protect each other. Can’t do that when we got multiple races currently being refugees and the people directly responsible are still in Ashenvale burning things down.
Rebuilt without ever touching the hair of the Horde that destroyed that content. Am I correct in presuming? It seems unless the Alliance behaves like the Amish where their only response to disaster is to just rebuild and wait for the next Horde disaster to land on them.
You say the Alliance is not that interesting but accuse anyone of trying to make them interesting as… what was it? Vindictive child. Thats it.
Its not about commiserating what has happened but the coming content that Tyrande will continue to be a presence to indirectly push the NE story forward and from this I have not seen many if any really Horde players applauding that. More dreading and lamenting it in fact.
Let’s be real here for a second even when Tyrande is not even taking direct action against the Horde and she is forced to be a neutral NPC and the players with more interest in the Horde story are forced to play along are not excited or please to participate in that but rather it is chore. They would prefer to be anywhere than there.
Y’all are just interested to just fridge this whole thing and never have to deal with it again.
2 Likes
What does any of that have to do with me? If I were just rabidly anti-NE/Alliance I wouldn’t be going to bat for how poorly Blizz has written them over the years.
People do tend to hate having to follow the other faction’s leaders around. Thrall and Tyrande are the two worst offenders in that regard. That’s not a huge revelation though, the game’s central tension was Alliance vs. Horde. Encouraging players to want to kill someone one day then go questing with them the next day like some kind of bipolar seesaw is just more failure to understand their own setting/world and how they’ve encouraged their players to interact with that. This is especially true given that they have the tech to give both sides their own quest NPCs, and especially especially true given there are other options with less polarizing effects within either faction. Questing with Brann isn’t going to generate as much friction as questing with Muradin (or Saurfang) who actively tried to kill us in the skies over ICC.
Speaking more frankly, I don’t think you’re capable of cutting through your bias enough to have candid discussions about this. You seem to view everything through the lens of Alliance victimhood, and your solutions seem to always amount to comeuppance against players for Blizzard’s writing. I’m not sure what your goal is here, really, because you’re not going to convince players that what’s best for them is for the game to dump on them even harder than the stretch of content that has already seen millions quitting.
8 Likes
Speaking simply my goal/desire in this conversation is this:
- Alliance violently lost their toy. They should violently take it back.
- Alliance should stop being goody two shoes and do darker… more interesting things.
The problem is that every time these ideas are put forward the Horde player plus their reverse uno card and play gatekeeper because these changes are punishing the Horde.
I mean even Alliance NPCs being mean to Horde NPCs or Players in casual shared content as tepid means of pushing back and addressing the wrongs the Horde has committed is too much.
And Horde players whom say they are totally for nonaggressive Alliance development are the same ones I will see lamenting yet another expansion with following tyrande around.
Which puts us at a complete impass.
1 Like
That’d be amazing.
I’m fine with the Argents keeping their enclaves. Funny thing about Hearthglen btw.
As I mentioned I’m poking through the Plaguelands on my Rogue. I never got to 100% either side before as you’d level out of it so quickly in the older leveling system. I’ve probably done all the content in bits and pieces, I did all the Argent stuff on this toon as I write him as being in the Dawn from about the arrival of Kel’Thuzad’s Necropolis to the end of Wrath. So I’m exalted with them, got the Argent Crusader title and tabard and all their tournament mounts but I digress.
Sylvanas (in disguise but it’s still Sylvanas) sends you to the Menders Stead to go help the Cenarion Circle, which leads directly to the Hearthglen questline.
And this makes me even angrier at BtS. Because the Forsaken town of Andorhal are down the road neighbors from Hearthglenn. A place where all races live in harmony, human and undead included.
So not only does she know about this. But she sends you to actively aid them. And in a pre BtS world this made sense to me.
The Forsaken aren’t thrilled about the Cenarions despookifying stuff. So much so you respookify it in the areas bordering the Bulwark. But there seems to be a general live and yet unlive approach. The Argents mean no harm to the Forsaken, always welcomed undead, and seem perfectly happy leaving them to their own devices in the more haunted areas bordering Caer Darrow. Plus they were pretty instrumental in defeating the Lich King so, that’s gotta count for something amongst the people who suffered the most under his reign.
Only now the quests make no God damn sense. Because if Sylvanas is so worried about the Forsaken learning they can hang out with humans, why is she sending them to go discover irrefutable proof of this fact?.
And here’s what interesting; there’s like one undead character in a Hearthglen basement. The rest of the undead Argents are in the Eastern half. That area seems cursed beyond repair. They mention how even artifical structures like towers need constant maintenance because everything preternaturally withers here.
And yeah thats probably where the undead would prefer to hang out. Because that sort of thing is more comfortable to them.
The Worgen conversely far as I can tell don’t have any instinctual pull toward spooky places. Gilneans might because they keep building Gothic architecture next to cursed castles or the Dark Portal.
But I’ll tell ya I do keep stocks of inky black potions in my Worgen’s inventory. Because a werewolf in broad daylight is like seeing Batman on a sunny beach. They just look a bit silly.
I actually think this is why the Worgen have been so hard done by the Alliance narrative over the years. They just don’t look great outside of spooky forests.
Which is why I’m 100% for Blizz just handing them Gilneas back. As well as Southshore and whatever else.
And I think the perfect 3rd party villain for the region would be a resurgence of the Scarlet Onslaught. Thats a group that would obviously want the Forsaken and Worgen dead, forcing them to put aside their differences for the time being and facilitate some truce.
Idk I think there being Paladins in shiny red armor being ripped apart by werewolves and Frankensteins would be pretty cool. Especially because the monsters would be the good guys. Which feels very Warcraft to me.
6 Likes
Alliance being darker is a welcome change, including military aggression. The actual pushback you’re receiving is people who have not been treated well by the story telling you that playing ball means acknowledging the shortcomings on the other side of the aisle, addressing both sides of the aisle, then moving forward with a story that serves both. As I said before, if you can find a path forward that satisfies both, I’m fully onboard. If it is a one-sided solution “because the Horde have gotten so much already” you don’t have a realistic grasp on the full picture. I will note that I’m fine with Alliance getting their own Old Soldier equivalent cinematic series. I won’t even ramble off a list of conditional character deaths and inconsistencies as part of the deal either, because more cinematics are a good idea period.
You’re the gatekeeper here, dude. This was a post about Forsaken identity, their starting areas in Tirisfal, and a tangent about Calia being foisted on them, but here you’ve come (and not for the first time, certainly not in threads about Horde topics) at a dead sprint to tell everyone to pump the brakes so we can sing songs of lament about Alliance woes instead. I’ve seen plenty of potential common ground between Horde and Alliance players around here, but those people are able to set aside their faction investment and look at things objectively.
12 Likes
I have acknowledged Horde shortcomings many, many times. I have stated new characters are needed to play the hero role in the Horde story. The push back I am getting is Horde players being made to follow an Alliance character and any and all Alliance military response against the Horde. One of the common arguments against it is its further punishment and that the Alliance would still be the good guy anyway… so fridging is the only solution.
For Calia I have said I am sucker for the lost prince/princess trope coming in to retake their kingdom. I have not pushed back on any of the suggestions but when the topic came to “alliance response” to one of the two primary Horde races I kept it on topic when the conversation led to that direction.
Right now the conversation seems to be leading towards some sort of a cooperative co-existence between the Worgen and Forsaken? Would I be out of line to say these two races are natural enemies? And that any relationship between them has to be a hostile one? From retaking their homes to establishing their kingdom?
I don’t get the faction hardliner ish.
I was trying to run a guild during BFA. Which I connected to the Forsaken’s storyline because never in a million years did I believe they’d set everything on fire then leave the story jogging in place for 3+ years. So that wasn’t a good idea.
And one of my bigger frustrations was I couldn’t bop over to my Alliance toons because there’s not even (or weren’t at that time) cross faction community groups and I kinda needed to be on call.
I’m still marching through SL on my Lock to unlock flying but I’ve been bouncing between an undead rogue, worgen warrior and nelf DH.
I’m really annoyed Feralas is only avaliable at level 15 as I rolled a whole butt Nelf Hunter to see that and Hyjal. Still have that 27 Nelf warrior kicking around but after remembering Fury Warrior’s can use 1h weapons and mlgging them into claws, I’ve not wanted to play her since the Worgen feels like this;
Probably going to the DH first as on my original I rushed by Legion content to do BFA stuff. But I’m definitely vibing with the DH class hall storyline and I love how they let you make a properly jacked up looking Nelf now.
I’m kind of going for a veteran of 100,000 battles theme for her. So that Teldrassil scar option with the demon scars are perfect. Genuinely looks like somebody you’d not want to mess with.
Suffice to say this faction hardliner nonsense just robs you of content. People who do that nonsense just decide they’re only going to play 50% of a game’s content. Baffling.
7 Likes
Those who know me on here, know I’m not a faction hardliner. I’m just super passionate about wanting more worgen content in game and talking about the issues that the NE and Worgen communities face.
I do try my best to see things from a horde players perspective, but there are some horde posters who just refuse to see the issues alliance players face, so those people I have no reason to be reasonable with.
I think BfA caused a permanent divide within the playerbase, because honestly, neither the NE or Worgen communities got a PROPER closure against the horde, I want the NE and Worgen to clash with the horde and get their big, on screen undeniable win.
I wish I had a answer for those who don’t want such a situation to happen, but what IS the answer though? Because I’d love to hear it. 
1 Like
I’m still not sure why you’re trying to field arguments against people who aren’t me in threads that aren’t this thread as some means of refutation. Horde receiving better storylines is not a development that deserves conditional terms from aggrieved Alliance players, even though their faction also desperately needs better storylines (and vice versa). Like, I have no doubt there are at least as many biased arguments from Horde cheerleaders out there, but they aren’t me and they (so far) aren’t here.
On Calia, I’ll just be blunt: the people who think it’s a great idea are almost never Forsaken players, and are instead players who wouldn’t have to suffer through the potential tonal shifts Calia could feasibly represent. But more on topic to the response, and as I’ve said, you pivot to this same topic in most threads you post in. I’m not challenging your right to do so, just to be clear, it just rings a bit hollow when you derail it in this direction then cry “gatekeeper!” at people for pushing back against said topic.
I think most of the Forsaken/Gilnean rivalry was an extension of Sylvanas and Genn. I think the setting would be worse off if they were to become allies though, mostly because they complement one another so well as rivals despite some thematic overlap. Getting over having your home WMD’d twice is a tall ask, too, even with Sylvanas MIA.
7 Likes
That’s the irony I think. There is so SOO MUCH blizz could do with a Worgen vs Forsaken storyline. Think of the countless Faction War storylines they could start just because these two races are insistent on wiping the other side out
5 Likes
I don’t think I ever took this position in this thread. The only “positives” I took exceptions to was where it involved the Alliance content. I am not a Sylvanas or Forsaken super fan so I don’t necessarily think I know the best thing for them.
If I pivot to this is simply because its the only hot button issue I am left with caring about and more debates and exchanges are happening regarding it. As we both mentioned Calia is favored by those who are not necessarily Forsaken fans but the forsaken I have experience with is not a good one. When Forsaken get to Forsaken thats when Alliance places and populations go boom.
May be thats why I like Calia because her influence means Forsaken won’t be creating any more sludge fields where Alliance villages used to be.
Fully agreed there. And this should be extended to all the races. Like NEs with Orcs and Trolls south of their borders (Cenarion circle included).
1 Like
Personally I hate the faction conflict as PvE. Because it feels like somebody’s mom walked in and made her kid win so the brat doesn’t throw a tantrum.
I don’t need the Horde to get onscreen wins. I’ve been the procuring cause of their wins. In one of those glorious moments where people listen to me, I insisted we hold the line at base during Isle of Conquest.
The Alliance had already torn down our gate but we’d inflicted more casualties. They’d been able to hold down Hangar due to some absurdly geared Guardian Druid who I only saw die once. He just wouldn’t drop.
So I get enough to double back to base as they charge in and we hold. We’re eventually pushed back to the General’s throne room but I’m throwing infernals, shadow fury, rain of fire, everything to stop the bastards in their tracks. We are overwhelmed but with their whole team there, just a fraction of ours was able to breach the wall and start the fight.
We won at the 11th hour despite being on the backfoot the entire match. The entire chat erupts with FOR THE HORDE.
It was glorious.
Why the hell would I want Blizz to just hand me a win like I’m playing bowling with bumpers on? That’s not challenging. There’s no thrill in that. No edge of your seat action.
So instead its just killing dudes in armor who you know you’ll never defeat because of the nature of the game. Where’s the fun in that?
4 Likes
I totally get a person falling in love with a faction or race and being all-in on them. I cannot wrap my head around supplanting your real life critical thinking capacity with that connection, though. I vastly prefer The Horde and Orcs in particular (Metzen’s versions, at least) but that doesn’t render me incapable of appreciating how deep in the dumpster the kaldorei are. Or that dwarves might as well not exist in the lore. Or that worgen have just kinda become Other-Humans in the lore. Or that draenei outside of dealing with the Legion are incredibly apathetic. Or the sheer stupidity of beings who have lived for more millennia than I have fingers being impetuous reactionaries that need a blonde teenager with daddy issues to set them straight.
Rising tides lift all ships, or something like that. Better Horde/Alliance stories make for better Horde/Alliance stories. When your allies and foes and everything in between are believable/relatable, it is a far better experience than one-dimensional tangents that ruin entire sections of the lore.
8 Likes
That’s not Forsaken Forsakening, though, that’s Afrasiabi Afrasiabi…ing. The beauty of the Wrathgate was that Sylvanas didn’t intend that, but it was easy for people to assume she did. The beauty of The Broken Shore was that Sylvanas didn’t want to do that, but it was easy for people to assume she did (although this one was a way harder sell, especially given the gunship with a commanding view of the ridge and the fact that, y’know, Vol’jin died up there lol). Forsaken having rough edges but not entirely being the monsters the world wants to believe they are is the sweet spot. An accepting world with a holy zombie at their head is boring, in the same vein that Alliance themes tend to be boring. As an Alliance player yourself, you shouldn’t want to visit that stale Lawful Stupid approach to others, I would think.
Edit: somewhat unpopular take, but I vehemently disagree with the idea that faction conflict shouldn’t be a huge part of this game going forward. I hate that this is the takeaway from the BFA trainwreck.
8 Likes
Seriously. Excuse me if I’m not interested in suffering for the decisions made by an actual IRL criminal.
5 Likes
I though AA was an Orc fanboy to the end, and it was Kosak who was pushing for the forsaken forsakening from cata onward.
Look, if Alliance is not allowed to
A) Begin a Deus Vult crusade against the Undead for the actions of Sylvanas, the Forsaken and the growing Scourge threat or
B) Build a mega structure of protection to keep the animals frothing at the mouth out
then the only solution for coexistence and Alliance inaction is… yep, Calia First of Her Name, Queen dead but born again, Lady of Light and true heir to the throne of Lordaeron is there to keep the edgy teens in check.
I have to reconcile somehow why the monster race(s) who has tried to kill my people for years with my leaders doing the absolute bare minimum to ensure security.
Tbh I’d vote for a more normalizing of relations.
The Forsaken genuinely don’t give a ish about the Worgen. It’s frankly bizarre writing.
The Forsaken are framed as like the arch nemesis to the Worgen. But they come up so infrequently - I was going to say in Horde storylines but honestly they get even less stuff to do in the Alliance ones - that it comes off like this;
Seriously skip like 3 zones and the Worgen do not come up in the Horde storyline. And on the Alliance you just have to miss 2 zones.
Honestly I’m not even sure why theyre on the Alliance. They’re patently disinterested in doing anything interesting with them because they can’t make the pretty boys with elf women obsessed with them look bad by biting someone’s head off.
Meanwhile the Forsaken are always around, doing wacko ish, even if the story has nothing to do with them. There’s always at least one in an Orc town that’s going to task you with collecting fluid samples if nothing else.
7 Likes
Forsaken destroyed their kingdom, killed their people and almost wiped them out while they were dealing with a feral wolfman curse.
The Alliance intervened militarily to save the kingdom and nearly succeeded before the Forsaken decided to blow everything up in green goo.
The Night Elves at the time were deep in Worgen lands trying to control the curse and helping its victims before giving them a new home.
Worgen have a myriad of reasons to be in the Alliance and have a blood fued with the Forsaken.
1 Like