Revisiting: Tirisfal Glades

Lore Story Forum
1

I’ve been bouncing around a few characters as I slog through SL on my Warlock. And of course it didn’t take me long to roll another Forsaken.

I’m of course the last person to ask for an objective review of Tirisfal. Between Vanilla to SL I’ve probably played through it more than any level in any other video game, and yet I’m never bored by it, because it’s the gaming equivalent of a grilled cheese sandwich with tomato soup for me. It’s comfort food you just can’t go wrong with.

But I had actually more recently played through Classic Tirisfal than its Cata version so I figured playing through it to level 15 so I can go replay the Plaguelands which I’ve never 100% completed as you’d always level out of it.

My main takeaway is what a cool character Lilian Voss is. Seriously by the time you go to find her she’s massacared a Scarlet camp and left one man hanging upside down from a tree like the Predator.

The quest start is pretty good because she left the Scarlet hanging upside down alive. As bait.

"As you look over the ruins of the camp, you hear a whisper behind you.

“I could kill you right now if I wanted to. You’d better watch your step, undead”"

Then you go to talk to Papa Voss and I’d forgotten what a killing machine Lilian is. She pounces on people like Geiger’s alien, hopping on their shoulders, engulfing them in shadow and snapping their necks.

It’s rad.

I’m also convinced she was murdered either by poison or in her sleep or some other manner she never saw coming. Presumably for asking too many pointed questions.

" Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The time has come, my little captive… word has come back from your father.

Lilian Voss says: Gebler, you came! What did he say?

Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: High Priest Voss denounces you as a daughter. He’s ordered that you be executed immediately.

Lilian Voss says: What? NO! This can’t be! Gebler, you know me… we were friends once!

Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: The High Priest sends his regrets. He head hoped that one day you would be a powerful weapon against our enemies.

Scarlet Lieutenant Gebler says: Unfortunately, you were too dangerous in life, and you’re far too dangerous in undeath. I will enjoy killing you, you Scourged witch…"

That last line about being too dangerous in life really confirms to me there isn’t an other explanation.

Blizz you gave the Forsaken an awesome character. Put the porcelain doll down. We’ve already got a lady who’s basically The Predator who single handedly orchestrated the downfall of the Scarlet and Scourge presence in Lordaeron.

Seriously why’d we bother with a Sylvanas novel? Yeah turned out her motivations (which were sold separately from the game) for the extremely dumb story were extremely dumb. No ish. Meanwhile Voss mentions she trained her whole life in martial arts, sorcerery and stealth to become basically fantasy, less ethical Batman. Let me see that!

But beyond Voss, all I can really talk about is how gorgeous Tirisfal is. It’s a truly unique zone. The green sky that seems to shroud the zone in a comforting mist. The rolling green hills and deciduous forests which sprinkled with splotches of violent. The harmless phantoms that drift around everywhere. Every light source has an eerie, ghostly hue to it.

Everytime I wander around it I remember why I instantly imprinted on the Forsaken like a baby goose. It’s such a visually distinct zone. So much so that I’d say only Revendreth feels anything like it, and I certainly hope they reuse assets from that should they ever properly rebuild the place. I’d do some dark ish for a rebuilt Lordaeron City resembling Castle Nathtria. Much as I loved the Undercity I always thought the Forsaken had moved well beyond the need to make due in human ruins and abandoned Scourge forts.

I don’t really have much to add here. I obviously love Tirisfal but in a way that’s hard to describe. I’ve just never before ot since seen anything in gaming that so instantously captured my imagination and has refused to let go before or since.

But sadly I’m not holding my breath for much of anything. I’m still very perplexed why Blizzard felt the need to wreck to absolutely iconic zones for a marketing stunt.

25 Likes
2

Because Forsaken, like Geese, are an inherent force of chaos and evil, vicious unrelenting enemies of all life they encounter?

I keed.

Never got into Tirisfal or the Forsaken story/aesthetic myself. I can appreciate it to a degree though. It’s more interesting to me than the ‘pretty-dull’ of Mulgore, even though I would choose to play a Tauren over a Forsaken 9/10. I guess Durator and to a lesser degree Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles have that great nostalgic power for me.

2 Likes
3

The Forsaken, much like geese, are perfectly friendly if you bring them food;

8 Likes
4

Hmm, well, I still don’t know.

5

Well, since geese are flying murder cobras and the forsaken will eat a corpse to regain health….I suppose it does depend on how one defines the term Friendly :wolf:

2 Likes
6

Lilian Voss absolutely hated her state of undeath in Cataclysm and right up to Mists of Pandaria. She only came around to it after years of living as an undead. She joined the rogue order hall and later decided that Calia Menethil would be the best candidate for governing the Forsaken of Lordaeron. She herself felt she wasn’t the kind of person to rule.

While Calia initially refused, it appears that she will take a position within the Forsaken governing body and be working with the Horde council on behalf of the Forsaken.

7

Back in Vanilla, I created one of every race just to get from 1-10 so I could experience their respective starting zones (Bummed me out that Gnomes and Trolls shared one though) cause I just loved the variety and getting to know each race/faction identity.

Tirisfal really did (and still does) stand out as one of the better starting zones (or zones in general) for me as well. I always remember getting a real sense of loss and sorrow from the questlines, and it was really solidified by the impeccable music and visuals of the place.

I love that they didn’t change it too much post-Cata with the great addition of the Lillian Voss storyline who is probably one of the coolest Forsaken characters since Sylvanas’ fall from grace story-wise and anything involving the Scarlet Crusade has always been insanely enjoyable from a story PoV for me as well.

I really think they should have focused the energy they spent on Calia and put it into Voss to give her a unique model and more development. The travesty of that whole Derek Proudmoore incident would’ve been a perfect opportunity for Lillian to stage a coup and possibly loop in Calia without going in the stupid ‘lightforged undead’ route.

16 Likes
8

I already knew all that.

My point is Calia isn’t an interesting character. Hell she isn’t a character. You could replace her with a needlessly ornate lamp and she’d have the exact same effect on the storyline.

Voss on the flipside is one of the first people you meet in Deathknell, and her killing spree is the finale for the Tirisfal questline.

I’m glad she was neutral for a spell because it means canonically the Scarlets and COTD were undone by an undead. I’d be pretty miffed if there was a Blue version of SM and Scholo were idk like Shaw played her role and then that’s who Blizz said canonically did it.

She’s interesting. Her background is vague enough that you could retroactively expand on it without retconning whole questlines and themes as was Sylvanas’s case.

Plus she’s just cool. She’s basically a Subtlety Rogue that took levels in SPriest. That’s about as Forsaken as you can get.

Calia is a non character who nobody wants. Seriously who’s she for? The paint drying appreciation society?

17 Likes
9

That’s not true. You may not want her, but plenty of people like her and find her interesting. I really wish they built her up more before presenting her as the inevitable leader.

The Forsaken deserve a queen who has more story to her and they’ve interacted with for more than one expansion. Technically the Legion priest interactions are very lackluster since she dies off screen and she doesn’t impress anyone as a follower.

If Blizzard was smart they’d have the gathering event in game and actually tell the story without us having to read the books to know why she’s a good fit for the undead.

2 Likes
10

Who? Can I interview them? I’m genuinely curious what that’s like.

I was initially at least mildly positively disposed to her because there was the potential for something interesting there.

And she’s just been a polite idiot who points out the obvious and apparently cannot read a room to save her life.

This could be interesting if it was deliberate. I’ve met wealthy people and genuinely they are that stupid as you can actually afford to have no social or career skills in this world if you were born into the right family. So her being this complete airhead pretty oblivious to what’s going on could be amusing.

But if they said they were proud of SL they’re likely proud of the non character who mainly exists to baffle Forsaken fans and entertain people who frankly need to ask more of this world.

13 Likes
11

The sad thing about Calia is she COULD have been a cool character if they had done it right. The long lost heir to the Menethil throne would’ve been an interesting story take if she had gone the way of traditional undeath.

I wish they had done something more interesting like having Sylvanas resurrect Calia via Val’kyr after killing her at The Gathering and taking her as a PoW to set an example in the same way she resurrected Derek. This could’ve led to an elaborate coup formed by Lillian Voss to free both Calia and Derek since lack of free will is the ultimate Forsaken taboo. (This would have been a damn cool scenario might I also add.)

I think this also would’ve put a bit more foreshadowing for Sylvanas’ descent into travesty and would have made the Derek Proudmoore incident feel less disjointed because we’re seeing a slow burn of her ultimately turning evil rather than full a-hole mode à la Dragon Queen from GoT. I think this also would’ve set Calia up in a more favorable light story-wise because she would’ve been a true Forsaken at that point and not some weird ‘light blessed’ undead that still hasn’t really been explained well.

She has a bombastic mog though, I’ll give her that.

8 Likes
12

Replacing her in-story by making the Legion Light or Discipline weapons talk like the Shadow one could would actually be more interesting. A floating talking light staff joining the Horde/Forsaken because it feels ‘these guys are messed up and need some help’ even if it was done in a patronizing manner.

2 Likes
13

It’s funny you mention that. I initially didn’t like her in Legion priest order hall. Her quotes were mediocre. I felt she was an airhead who suffered thru a lot because of her brother.

She then grew on me when I read Before the Storm. I felt that this story should have been in-game. Her conversations with Parqual Fintillas and his daughter Philia showed me she truly loved her people. She only wanted them to be happy. Her dying along with the Forsaken present in the Arathi Highlands to Sylvanas made Sylvanas into a mustache twirling villain.

I felt her convos were geniune and gave us insight on why she initially was just a bubble head. She came from a good family, but wanted true love, to not be a pawn to her father’s crown. She wanted to be a person. Not a leader.

She only took on this role because Lilian Voss is begging her and only after her dying. She found new purpose and I really WISH BFA didn’t suck so much. You have to play Horde and Alliance to understand what her motivations are and why she isn’t boring.

Her helping Derek Proudmoore, the fallen night elves and the growing as a person is never shown too well in game. We have to go to the Shadows Rising story and pre-launch Shadowlands event to get nuggets of insight on who she is and she grows on me.

I think she will be a good leader IF they actually let her do stuff. She’s like Baine in Oribos. Instead she’s just standing around throughout SL.

1 Like
14

Yeah the same novel that casually retconned the Forsaken’s society by turning them into a weird book banning police state?

That was weird enough seeing as the Forsaken have bookstores and a Loremaster.

Plus they’re the only eyes optional faction in game, so the written word was already of limited value.

Plus they’re all functionally immortal so I’ve no idea what you think trying to erase a history would accomplish seeing as they can just remember it, and that is the reason regimes do that sort of thing.

Plus up until that exact moment the Forsaken were free to leave whenever they felt like it. This is a core tenant of their society and is stressed up and down the street constantly. Voss, Judkins, Bartholomew, presumably every other undead PC race character in a 3rd party not named Meryl Felstorm casually left to go do much more concerning things with no issue

Plus how in God’s name is Sylvanas going to convince them they can’t get along with living humans with the Argent Dawn handing out pamphlets in Tirisfal? Hearthglenn is across the road from Andorhal, Sylvanas. Cats out of the bag.

It was just such a thunderously dumb narrative that showed such cavalier disregard of any and all preexisting Forsaken narratives. Forgive me if I’m not confident anything that crawled out of that is something the Forsaken deserve. They deserve a writer who at least reads the questlines on WoWpedia.

17 Likes
15

I think that’s an issue of where they decided to take Sylvanas’s character down the proverbial villain route.

I think you’re missing my point. Calia’s parts aren’t bad. Just a naive girl trying to help people and getting herself killed only to be raised into undeath.

I felt book burning may have been a recent development since they were still raising undead with the Valkyr and wanted to make sure the new recruits didn’t get any ideas. I think mid Cataclysm. Sylvanas became a whole different person after her third death in Silverpine.

In Silverpine and the Western Plaguelands she’s raising people and sending them against her enemies. She’s doing stuff that doesn’t follow the logic the Forsaken were known for.

I just think the core tenants of Free-Will was either abandoned or toned down by the events which resulted in her third death by the time in the book the society was changing yet again and many undead didn’t want to live forever let alone enjoyed replacing their body parts with other people like the smith using the artist hand.

I felt the story was showing a shift in mentality and the Desolate Council diverging from what Sylvanas wanted and she overreacting against their changes. Forsaken narratives have changed since Cataclysm, MoP, and BFA.

Lore wise we need them to show the narrative in game and actually build up Calia Menethil’s character. The criticisms of the story are fair, but it’s not Calia’s fault, but the one writing the story. The books are lackluster and Blizzard seems to think people will just agree and not need much explanation in-game to why we have these changes in characters and their personalities and motivations.

2 Likes
16

Yeah that’s frankly bizarre.

Newly risen undead are shown to be a lot of things but combat ready certainly isn’t one of them. Sometimes it straight up doesn’t take and they’re just mindless zombies.

But that no rules on undead being unable to leave weren’t changed. Apothecary Judkins is in the Plaguelands with the Argents. He left RAS over moral disagreements and joined up with the Dawn.

And honestly I think any authority would be within their rights to stop a government scientist from joining a paramilitary group with ties to extremist groups currently hanging out next to your border.

But they were pretty absolute about the free will thing. Until suddenly at the Gathering they weren’t. This wasn’t changed elsewhere in any capacity I noticed and I’ve gone out of my way to do any and all Forsaken content so, I feel I probably would’ve noticed unless I missed a huge goldmine of it somewhere.

14 Likes
17

That’s why I get so frustrated with Blizzard. There writing goes from bizzare to insane. They get mad at us for pointing out that we want consistency in the lore and then get mad at us when they saym “IT’S in the BOOK.”

We read the book and the narrative is all over the place and we are told to just roll with it. I understand what they were trying to explain. The Forsaken of Vanilla-BC era were different than the ones in Cata-MoP who became more autocratic and Sylvanas turning to an authoritarian dictator.

The narrative should of explained that. They shouldn’t of just left us scratching our heads. I think the roll out of Calia Menethil like all of BFA and now Shadowlands was just terrible. I try not to hold too much judgment on the Forsaken shift in personalities.

I think if they wanted to return to their roots of free-willed undead then having her lead the Forsaken away from the cultish personality of Sylvanas to an independent society who wants to just make peace with those around them. I loved the idea of playing a Forsaken character until the Burning of Teldrassil where I couldn’t play my Forsaken anymore because I just felt the story went off the deep end. I enjoyed the “evil” Forsaken trope for a while, but they became stupid and nihilistic with the events that started in Cata and really in BFA. Here’s hoping Microsoft have better writers than Blizzard.

10 Likes
18

My ideal solution would be to have Calia take the throne and be the figurehead while a new Desolate Council led by Voss actually handle the day to day ruling.

The Forsaken would have an image problem even if all they ever did was hand out free ice cream. So wheeling her out when it’s time to smile and wave at camera would be useful for propaganda. Additionally as the rightful heir Lordaeron she’d grant legitimacy to the Forsaken’s statehood as their living neighbors are all monarchical.

Hell have the Forsaken pull up old treaties with Greymane’s signature up on it. That’d be fun. The Alliance always pulls off treaties from off screen, turnabouts fair play. Still hilarious to me in Wrath they had Varian straight up declare war, then make peace off screen, just so Garrosh could be the aggressor.

At least in Lordaeron’s old design I’d have Calia in the throne room on the throne being flagged as unfriendly to Alliance, much like Stormrage was in Teldrassil but less awkwardly. Always a bit weird you could beat the ish out’ve his wife in front of him and he wouldn’t do anything. I liked to pretend we charged in moments after a fight;

“Oh I’m sorry dear I’d intervene but apparently I’m only good for napping and planting trees so sorry hands tied”

The real boss fight and government would be in the Royal Quarter with the Desolate Council which I’d have Voss lead and include representatives from RAS, the Deathstalkers/guard and the CotFS. Ideally I’d make them Calder Gray, the Black Bride and a retconned to be undead Natalie Seline.

I’d also add a sort of necro dock to Tirisfal north of Brightwater Lake. The Forsaken weirdly seem to have the largest navy of any Horde faction. To the point where Red Exile’s Reach starts on a Forsaken ship. Which actually makes sense to a point. Seeing as they don’t need to breathe they’d be excellent maritime fighters. Even if you sink their ship you’re probably getting boarded by soaked undead clawing their way up the sides.

They apparently make these via dredging up sunken ships. So basically boat necromancy. And that sounds so stupid but yet so cool and I wanna see how it’s done. And if they raised them up from the sea, can they go back under? Idk think it’d be cool if you saw something like this;

Plus it’d give somewhere for Tattersail, Derek Proudmoore and Captain Stone to hang out. The Forsaken probably count more than just two Kul Tirans in their ranks and what I love about the Forsaken is that everyone just finds spooky versions of their old passions.

So who’s down for some creepy sea shanties?

9 Likes
19

Dude you read my mind! I want a Desolate Council to represent the diverse opinions of the undead. Forsaken need a shift in how they are viewed especially with what Sylvanas has done. If they do half of what you say. Then we would actually see a shift in the right direction.

I think if Gilneas is retaken by the Alliance. Having Calia Menethil as the figurehead would cool tensions with their neighbors. I would love her to just delegate to the Desolate Council and having Lilian Voss acting as a chief spy similar to Shaw in the SI:7.

That would be ideal and I would add that the Forsaken don’t have a way to repopulate officially. So having Calia negotiate with the Argent Crusade and Maldraxxus to get volunteers who would return to undeath as the chief representatives of the Shadowlands and protect Lordaeron for the living and the undead.

Conscious to what their neighbors would think and promising to defend the world of Azeroth from all enemies foreign and domestic.

1 Like
20

Personally I wouldn’t involve the Forsaken that much with Maldraxxus. Beyond using it as just dynamite advertising. Same with the rest of SL.

"So turns out the afterlife is a nightmare where you’ll be consigned to an unending fate based on the judgement of some guy. And that’s an upgrade it used to be just a robot. Yes heaven has, wayyy more of them than you’d expect.

Family separation is pretty common, there is no due process for anything your soul is sorted like a mail room, and there’s a solid chance you’re going to wind up undead anyway.

So with that in mind why not consider regular old Azerothian undeath where you at least get to look at flowers and maybe be with your family! Ask your local Apothecary if alternative mortality is right for you! Side effects may include…"

15 Likes