It’s just so wrong having a whitewashed character in my eyes with a savior complex preaching to the forsaken the path they were on is wrong without experiencing what they went through. Hell she even had a non painful ressurection
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And their dessert will be an all-cream Oreo. No black to be found!
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It’s just immensely frustrating that Blizz is less interesting in the Forsaken than I am.
I’ve characters like this one who lost everything, including their connection to the Light and sanity, with the 3rd War.
And others who’s lives frankly weren’t much worth living to begin with, and who have achieved status and feats otherwise impossible to a peasant.
But consistently all have made peace and found some sort new equilibrium with their new existence. They’re not scrambling for meaning or wondering what their purpose is. Not anymore than the rest of us at least. And don’t need some queen to show them the way.
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Forsaken are ex-lordaeron citizens.
Calia is the true heir to the throne.
she is the real queen of lordaeron by right.
Sylvanas is in exile and her old hateful ways brought the forsaken to the brink
and now… embrace the light!
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The Gnomes made Chernobyl look like a scraped knee and their cousins are the duck mothering Borg.
The Forsaken are not the one in need of change.
They’ve never threatened the world with an apocalypse. They actively support the Cenarion Circle and Argent Dawn in the Plaguelands.
Just stop trying to march on them and they’re pretty damn reasonable.
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You’re just poking fun right?
Even I can’t tell when I’m being sarcastic at this point.
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This right here is where I think they’re getting it so utterly wrong, assuming Calia is intended to replace Sylvanas in any capacity. The notion that the Forsaken don’t have a place in the world, that they’re wrestling with their identity or something? No. That ship sailed a decade ago. I mean, maybe the few newly raised ones who were inexplicably utterly subservient to Team Banshee MurderKillTeamBravo, but the core Forsaken? No.
There’s not a lot of silver linings to be found after Legion, but watching The Forsaken choose The Horde over Sylvanas when Saurfang was finally allowed to get himself killed? That was pretty awesome to me, by way of a full, formal recognition that the mad lad zombies actually view The Horde as their home, enough to give Sylvanas the stink eye when she called it nothing. That moment was sandwiched between a mountain of bad moments, but it was still at least somewhat poignant to me.
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Really wish the Forsaken could’ve been a bit more forceful than a side eye;
“You’d die for these usurpers? These savages?”
“No. But you will”
It’s so frustrating. There was such a sterling opportunity to twist that “Massacre any who stand in their way; human, undead, or otherwise” statement back in her face.
I’m just saying that cutscene would’ve been 200% improved if her escape was immediately circumvented by an infernal conjured by the OG Forsaken Warlock from the first cinematic.
She keeps trying to pull off and Shadow Priests are flinging ghosts at her. Deathstalkers are mid-air shadow stepping and stabbing the crap out of her.
She less flies off and more barely escapes. And that line from Edge of Night comes back. She did indeed create a nation ready for war and devastating in the arcane.
Then have SL play out as is with the Forsaken and Void Elves playing the role of the Death Knights.
Then keep the rest. But at the end when Tyrande forgives Sylvanas just have Voss or whomever glaring saying simply;
“We’ll remember, and be waiting”
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Can I note this is still objectifying Calia as a Menethil rather then for her own personality?
The players need to have a character who they’d root for regardless of implicit claim, and Calia keeps getting the short end of the development stick.
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That’s where it starts and we have and in lore reason to have them develop their personality thanks to Voss. What they need to do is give her screen time to make a name for herself as Calia.
Issue with people acting as her detractor they have no good candidates since Sylvanas left the position. Calia Menethil not only has legitimacy since the Alliance took Lordaeron at the start of BFA they have no in-game lore reason to trust any undead with their beloved kingdom they bled for.
Since the Alliance won the war, and the Horde acquiesced to their terms. One of the few things the Horde can accept especially the undead is accepting a new Desolate Council with her as the symbolic monarch ruling ceremonially Lordaeron. If they immediately choose any direction which the Horde internally suspects as wrong and especially the Alliance they’d be overrun from all sides.
The Forsaken need a positive well welcomed leader who both sides of the divide would allow especially the side with the superior forces who recently took their city and only just now is okay with undead existing and Anduin’s efforts to normalize the undead as unliving fellow humans who were once citizens of Lordaeron brothers and sisters to Stormwind. The Forsaken would be wise to continue this mentality if only for their own survival as the living humans from Gilneas and Stromgarde are at their heels hoping they mess up to prove they aren’t worthy of their homeland.
Calia’s characterization thus far has been as a benevolent undead counselor, which is why she seems so ill-suited to representing The Forsaken in any capacity. Calia’s supposed claim to Undercity holds about as much water as someone insisting The Forsaken should have regarded Arthas as their King during his existence as The Lich King. Sylvanas was not the Banshee Queen because of her bloodline, but because she was a figure worth rallying around (up until recent expansions, that is) who earned their devotion.
Lordaeron isn’t held by the Alliance at any rate. It was blighted into ruin, not worth holding, and by the end of BFA neither the Horde or Alliance could field a large enough army to occupy or enforce borders in that capacity. Maybe if Velen or Malfurion/Tyrande decide to get spicy about it (ironically, Night Elves probably have the strongest military force in play unless their counter-offensive in Darkshore went poorly, which I doubt) but I don’t think either of those things are likely, especially not for someone none of them have even really interacted with like Calia.
Desolate Council makes the most sense to me, and is on-brand for them already. There’s just nothing to Calia. No gallows humor, no rejection from the world, no rotten face, no concept of really anything that has informed the unlives of all those who called Undercity home. She’s just a milquetoast Alliance light-zombie that Jaina’s remarkably well preserved zombiebro thinks is swell.
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People need to stop saying Desolate Council. Doesn’t exist. I don’t think there is one line of in game text that mentions it. Any forsaken future that doesn’t include the Deathguard and its leadership the Executors is just gaslighting. They are and have been the backbone of the forsaken. If we are going to be exploring themes of Lordaeron then its past time that the gag is removed from the forsaken narative and these men and women are given background updates that include their Lordaeron heritage. These are the men and women of the original Alliance who died for it, only to be confronted by upstarts from Stormwind who would deny their existence and story.
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Again that’s the opinions of her detractors, but lore-wise Voss felt this isn’t true and wanted to have her present within the Horde Council and even at the end of BFA had her speak with the Undead in Tirisfal to see about helping them with their situation as she did Derek Proudmoore.
Lore-wise the Alliance held Lordaeron throughout the Fourth War only giving it back conditionally to the Horde and the Forsaken, but the Alliance reserved the right to retake it. The Alliance is building up Southshore in the Hillsbrad area as a way to monitor the Horde. They also have the Forsaken basically cornered. Gilneas to the South, and Stromgarde and Hinterlands to the Southeast.
This is why the Desolate Council needs her on it. They have no legitimacy without approval from internally the Horde as they are super wary about the undead and the Alliance will not abide any Forsaken council that doesn’t have people they can trust on it.
Again the war ended the Forsaken suffered the heaviest losses within the Horde. They also committed genocide and after the events of the Cataclysm, and Fourth War the Forsaken are lucky they’re not being hunted to extinction. As the losers of the war they can’t just refuse the offers given to them which are implicit ultimatums.
Calia Menethil allows for legitimacy she cares for them as a people and her presence even as a complimentary liaison is enough to prevent their extinction as she is the one person keeping the Forsaken from being utterly defeated by the Alliance especially by the hardliners within it.
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While having a capable diplomatic leader is important, the rest of this is a whole lot of ‘citation needed’ for me. As far as I know there is nothing suggesting the Horde is in any way in a weaker position to the Alliance.
Heck, Forsaken forces were still in Tirisfal for the BfA epilogue quest introducing Calia properly.
On a side note, there is another problem with Calia from a more meta perspective; since she isn’t a military character she basically has few ways of getting continuing screen time the way Blizz tells stories. And the screen time she does get will be relegating her pretty heavily to the sidelines due to being a priest.
BFA has shown us military power levels mean very little in Warcraft.
The only thing I can say for Calia is that I am personally a sucker for lost prince/princess reclaiming their kingdom storylines.
And secondly the way that Sylvanas ruled, and the culture she encouraged in the Forsaken has been canonically shown as bad.
Just as the Sylvanas we knew for the past years has very few resemblances to this new Sylvanas.
The same hold true for the Forsaken. Blizzard, for better or worse is changing the way Forsaken were. So just because Calia was not raised into mind slavery or rage and hate is no longer a prerequisite to be “True” frosaken. She is there to push the same message that Sylvanas did in SL.
The old way was bad. The new way is good.
And Calia symbolizes that.
Not really what I was getting at.
Blizzard likes to focus on characters that are able to fight;
Thrall, Jaina, Baine (technically), Nathanos, Sylvanas, Tyrande
Anduin even changed to visually fit a paladin more then a priest.
Meanwhile Velen is probably the most noticeable ‘priestly’ character, while Moira is basically never involved in-game.
The end of the Fourth War should have been enough for the Horde players to realize they lost and better represented in-game. Shadows Rising does go into more detail about the status moving forward for the Horde. Here’s some citations.
Some parts of Tirisfal Glades appeared to be inhabitable and unoccupied following the armistice, such as Calston Estate, but most of the Forsaken, especially civilians, appear to have long since moved to Orgrimmar and Kalimdor - although Lilian mentions possibly reclaiming the Ruins of Lordaeron to restore the Undercity, as her people prefer darker and damper environments to that of Durotar. Lordaeron Keep is also mentioned as still heavily blighted, although it seems that the effects are very slowly receding. Scarlet Crusade propaganda pamphlets distributed throughout Lordaeron’s living population and were found near the estate, accusing Anduin of being Sylvanas’s secret lover and a traitor to their people, the two rulers having allegedly conspired at the Gathering of the Arathi Highlands to kill Calia, in order for Anduin to marry her and make secure his claim towards Lordaeron, as well as garner sympathy for the Forsaken. They further declared that the Menethil dynasty would live on, claiming to have Calia’s surviving son as a living heir to the kingdom, and vowed to one day put an end to Anduin’s “puppet reign”.[69][70]
With the exception of the Order of the Silver Hand, whose ranks the Horde paladins apparently formally left after the conflict, the Class Orders have remained largely neutral, with their banners featured prominently in both Stormwind’s Training Hall and Orgrimmar’s Barracks; the Valarjar, the only Class Order without a significant membership of Azeroth’s races, is the only one entirely absent from both cities. The Silver Hand retained a presence in the Sanctum of Light in the Eastern Plaguelands, where the Sanctum was cleared for the storage of important paladin artifacts. Silvermoon and Quel’Thalas appeared to have been mostly left intact by the Fourth War as well, but some artifacts have been moved to Magister’s Terrace for safekeeping.[71]
After the Battle of Lordaeron, which destroyed Brill and drove the Forsaken from their stronghold in the Undercity, the Alliance engaged in a massive military campaign against the remaining Forsaken settlements in the Eastern Kingdoms throughout the Fourth War. In the end, Fenris Isle and Shadowfang Keep (whose artifacts are taken to Fenris Keep to be guarded closely) were reclaimed in Silverpine Forest by the Bloodfang Pack, and Southshore was reclaimed in Hillsbrad Foothills, presumably strengthening the worgen’s presence considerably, but the status of the Gilnean peninsula remains unclear. Baradin’s Wardens maintained a tenuous hold on Tol Barad, the island west of Gilneas, although have not been able to take back the prison. Danath Trollbane, the leader of his newly restored kingdom, apparently rules most of the Arathi Highlands from Stromgarde Keep after the Alliance victory in the Battle for Stromgarde, although most of the soldiers who fought in the battle have returned home, and there was still a limited Horde presence in some parts of the region, such as a group of Horde refugees north of Thandol Span.[4]
Regardless of territorial changes, the Alliance and the Horde appear to have been significantly weakened at the war’s end. Anduin was forced to conscript farmers after all his formal soldiers were deployed at Stromgarde and other places mid-way through the Fourth War.[72] With Tyrande and Malfurion distancing themselves from his leadership, the night elf population mostly extinct, and much of the Kul Tiran fleet destroyed by Queen Azshara, Anduin further mentioned that he could muster enough soldiers for only one final assault against Orgrimmar, stating that if their assault failed, they were essentially “done for”, and even assisted by Saurfang’s revolution, seemed uncertain whether they could definitively prevail.[73] Turalyon, located in Stormwind Keep alongside Alleria, later mentioned that the Fourth War took a terrible toll upon the Alliance, depleting their military might, but vows to restore their defenses, noting that reclaiming Stromgarde was a first step, and perhaps there were other lands of the old Alliance (presumably referring to Gilneas or other territories in his homeland Lordaeron) which could likewise be reclaimed.[1] Alleria, while longing to join the hunt for her sister Sylvanas, asserted that the Alliance must rebuild its strength and resolved to assist Turalyon in his efforts to do so, but also mentioned that she will see Sylvanas answer for her actions “when the time comes”.[74]
In Suramar City, Lor’themar reminded Thalyssra that the Horde’s armies were depleted, their treasuries emptied, their resources stretched thin, and implied that any blow to them in their current state would be disastrous,[75] and this was apparently the reason why Baine Bloodhoof was initially very reluctant to accept Kiro and his vulpera into the Horde’s ranks even after the armistice.[76] Peons at Crushblow were disillusioned by their treatment as laborers and briefly deserted their base, the naga launched an assault against southern Zuldazar, and Vintner Iltheux struggled with managing arcwine production for the Horde, but with Kiro’s help, all these problems were eventually resolved.[77]
However, even after the Alliance settlements in the island were removed as a result of the armistice, the Horde was still apparently only able to spare a very limited number of soldiers to directly assist Zandalar when Queen Talanji was threatened by the Banshee loyalists, with Thrall, Baine, and Thalyssra only able to muster a small host no greater than Talanji herself could gather. Thrall told her that bringing more soldiers would have left Orgrimmar undefended, and Lor’themar previously mentioned that Zuldazar was strategically vital as a resupply point for their remaining ships. Nevertheless, with their assistance, Talanji was able to eventually secure Zandalar, formally taking her place on the Horde Council and eliminating most of Sylvanas’s forces from her lands.[4]
Like it or not (I certainly don’t) they use novels and stories outside the game to handle crucial developments and lore shifts. It doesn’t necessarily need to be specifically The Desolate Council though, so much as some framework akin to that tantamount to The Forsaken choosing to govern themselves (And yeah, Deathguard would figure prominently into that).
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Voss is a terrible choice as a leader in my eyes too, but Blizzard can’t go an expansion without purging Horde icons.
Ultimately this boils down to serving Forsaken players—the tone, themes, and player experience—or pulling the rug out from under them. Alliance being really keen on installing an Alliance figure in a Horde subfaction (both the actual Alliance players and the Alliance in setting) shouldn’t be a consideration here. The notion that Calia, of all people, is equipped to be a life coach for Undercity’s people is a bad joke that disregards and utterly misses The Forsaken player’s journey so far.
And speaking less on a meta level, everything you’ve posted above supports the fact that no one has enough military power to enforce anything on anyone. Horde aren’t going to invade Lordaeron because the Forsaken refuse to serve an Alliance puppet (maybe Baine, in a fit of rage that the love of his life Anduin didn’t come home). Nor are Forsaken the only culprits who followed Sylvanas into Very Bad Things. There’s no reason to assume the undead are on thin ice such that the Horde is going to turn on them at the first opportunity. The mak’gora at Orgrimmar was shown to be a reunification of Team Red, basically.
Having said that, forcing a character and story trajectory on a faction that undermines said faction’s identity tracks with how current team approaches lore and narrative, so I dread what 9.2.5 is about to unfurl.
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