Rets werent even the worst class/spec combo

I think people like buffs. The can of worms this opens, however, is that paladins and rets werent even in that bad of a spot… Holy and Prot are S+ tier and Ret brought a ton of utility. Like, A METRIC TON of utility. They are also quite bursty. Theyre just built with gaps into the rotation so their DPS doesnt really ramp up until later parts of the game when tier sets can cause resets that fill those gaps. This is part of the reason their damage feels so strong in PVP - they unload on you when theyre in range.

By contrast, Warriors are in a worst position. The fact rets get buffed but warriors remain in the dumpster fire is why people are scratching their heads. It opens the question “why rets, when there are others that are worse off.”

Prot war is viewed as the worst of the 4 tanking class spec combos. Arms is total trash, requiring high uptime and little movement to spam slam to be in dead last place on damage. Their PVP situation isnt much better, slam is unusable, they are underrepresented in every bracket (below 10%) for obvious reasons - squishy, low damage, and low utility with unrelenting assault being the only silver lining that most can just ignore. Dead last or 0 representation in PVP tournaments. Yes, Rank 1 players carried by Rank 1 holy paladins can make some representation but as a whole, WotLK is rogue (25 rogues in top 100, 6 warriors in 2s for example, and in 3s, 7 warriors and 30 shamans…) and caster cleave dominated.

Then fury spec is the only “viable” spec warrior has and it was tied with ret in damage… but it brings relatively 0 utility. Commanding shout over imp is something your token fury warrior can bring but, no salv, HoP, bubble, offhealing, cleanse, sac, numerous blessings, judgments, replenishment, haste, crit, etc. If you have a feral you dont need rampage. The idea fury scales insane is also pure copium. We have the sims. It isnt until full ilvl 277 heroic ICC gear + shadowmourne that fury warrior is even in the top 4 dps. In full Ulduar Bis, theyre still 2k behind every other class.

Blizzard should have never touched ret because now a huge can of worms is open. I guess they kind of opened it when they buffed demo locks and improved their QoL with their spell power buff, but there is the very real elephant in the room that warriors are a lot worse off than paladins overall and the idea that they “catch up” is already being disproven by the current power curves and sims.

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Agree. plus the argument that warriors might scale in the future is weak. are warriors suppose to suffer through a miserable experience for 6+ months in hopes that they scale enough to be brought into a raid? Buffs now > scaling in the future

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See this is what we, as Ret paladins, were saying, except replace scaling with T10 set bonus.

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I can see that. Warriors and Rets should be fighting among one another. We share the same oppression from Warlock Privilege.

But imagine that your other two specs were also undesirable for most raid groups?

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There are 2 huge bits of misinformation people keep spreading.

1) Warriors will scale to being amazing later!

The data is currently showing that eventually in full ICC heroics + shadowmourne just middle/upper of the pack. So you go from dead last to slightly above average. The Ulduar ilvl bump is really showing more people that even now, youre still 2k behind other classes. Even on the sims, assassination rogues scale harder than fury warriors this phase…

They also said fire mages would scale well, and theyre already popping off significantly better than warriors are off the ilvl boost.

2) Warriors are good in PVP

At least so far, this is very wrong. Ironforge.pro shows that there are 5 or more rogues or shamans for every warrior in the top 100. More caster cleaves in general as well. Some of the warriors are also alts of the same top 100 warriors. In other words, if you play the game for 10 years on private server and get carried by a rank one paladin you can break into the top 100 after hundreds of arena games.

We can look to tournaments for a more clear look at acute viability. Warriors either dont exist or come in last place in tournies. Theyre squishy, lack unique utility beyond unrelenting assault that most ppl can safely ignore, and have bad damage. You can’t slam. Everyone and their mother can disarm bladestorm… or your shield, making you easy to kill/focus.

With very good/BiS gear on a warrior, you can charge a hunter, MS crit him for 1.6k, then eat a 8k explosive shot if it too crits… You can charge a boomkin, sudden death execute him for 1.2k, and then see that starfall is doing 1.7k to you every tic… safe to say, the damage in-out ratio is very bad. You dont go from dead last in PVE, lose slam (20% of your dmg?) and suddenly start doing damage in PVP where everyone has more armor, talents that reduce phyiscal damage, etc while they all cast spells that normally do way more DPS than you and have 100% armor pen.

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Ret paladins couldn’t care less. Blizzard Devs are literal morons for caving to them. Warriors are clearly as a whole in a much, much worse spot than paladins. And fury was barely beating rets. It just shows blizzard doesn’t even look into anything. They just saw the constant daily threads whinging about rets being in such a bad spot that they cave and buff them. Then use Fury’s dps as a baseline for rets, meanwhile completely ignoring that fury brings nothing to the table. If you have a feral druid and a warlocks imp there is 0 reason to bring a fury.

Algalon kills class distribution are a good way to show what is actually in dire need of a buff. Paladins represent 18% of logged algalon kills, warriors are at the bottom with 4.2%. they are by a country mile the least desirable class to bring along to raids. And they are ignored (even nerfed) because people have this notion that they will be the top dps spec in the game in the final patch, which might not even be true. So blizzard is willing to buff, already the most represented class in high quality raids, but has delivered multiple nerfs to the worst class. GG blizz, get some people who actually know what is going on before balancing classes.

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why are you poking the bear. seriously what is wrong with you? why would you taunt them? they’re finally happy. and you go in and just take a crap on their heads. I know i’m for the most considered to be a troll but why? this serves nothing but to rile the forums in another flame war.

this right here. the fact 18% of the kills for algalon are registered by paladins shows that they are over represented in Algalon kills i think we need to see nerfs to paladins. warriors only 4.2% what a joke.

oh and he’s right about them whining on the forums. they whined so hard blizz broke.

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Yall hate us cause you aint us. Straight up post on your main or us rets cant even take you seriously

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Prot wars need some type of buff to make them more relavent come on u buffed ret pally that didnt need a buff, give prot wars more utility or even ardent defender something devs stop craping on the prot wars

Blizzard did not make the change because of DPS, they made the change to DPS because of class representation in raids.

The cause was Ret paladins not being brought to raids, the fix was a DPS increase to make the class more attractive. If your class is represented well, you don’t need any fixes.

Blizzard has made a good change, and in my view the only people who should be upset are people who have been replaced by ret paladins in their guilds.

Anyone? Anyone been replaced by a ret paladin? Calling all players of any class who were dumped from their guild raid roster in favour of a ret paladin. Chime in any time now…I’ll wait…any time now…don’t be shy…

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Meanwhile, shamans getting free tier tokens because warriors are nowhere to be seen, lol.

It was because of DPS, nothing else.

Editing because my first post was using the wrong chart.

I’m not allowed to post links but if you care enough to remove the spaces you can scroll down to the second list and sort by “parses” to see a rough idea of class representation:

[Warcraft Logs - Combat Analysis for Warcraft](https:// classic. warcraftlogs. com/zone/statistics/1017)

And also:

This is why I have the view that I have because I think the proof supports my view, but if you have alternate interpretations that make sense to you then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

With very good/BiS gear on a warrior, you can charge a hunter, MS crit him for 1.6k, then eat a 8k explosive shot if it too crits… You can charge a boomkin, sudden death execute him for 1.2k, and then see that starfall is doing 1.7k to you every tic… safe to say, the damage in-out ratio is very bad. You dont go from dead last in PVE, lose slam (20% of your dmg?) and suddenly start doing damage in PVP where everyone has more armor, talents that reduce phyiscal damage, etc while they all cast spells that normally do way more DPS than you and have 100% armor pen.

Rofl. 1.6k crit on MS? What are you talking about? Warriors can do like 10k damage in an intercept stun

Warriors are the most busted pvp class in this expansion and it’s only going to get worse. War HPal is the most oppressive 2s comp to have existed in classic thus far, and thundercleave is one of if not the best ladder comp in the game.

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funny but true story. we don’t take any rets seriously.

But they were the loudest. Squeaky class gets the buff.

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are you sure about this? did you not read this little bit of data?

Sorry Yama. stealing your data.

but they are. they literally are one of the highest represented specs in ulduar. they buffed them because they wanted to give them a cookie to go away. and they still aren’t happy. you don’t know what you’re talking about.

its awful because now they will continue to whine and complain for more. and thats what happened.

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they are always complaining they could be a top 3 spec and they’ll be complaining they ain’t the top.

Looking at ICC rankings from 3.3.5 Ret was #4 overall dps. Where will they be now with these buffs?

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further down. things have changed. they’ll be a B+ at best so around the middle maybe upper middle of the pack with mourne. with out it? still middle bottom