Obligatory reminder to undo PVP nerfs considering how many classes are strong right now. A post re-work class shouldn’t feel so garbage.
4 Likes
No thanks, less frustrating as it is now.
1 Like
Frustrating how? All you had to so was play correctly after the duration increase and the buffs were maintained, you didn’t have to do anything degenerate. Unlike now where the only way to get max value from Dawn is to overcap builders and Dusk is just given for free.
Faster opener, for there isn’t a requirement to get to 5 before popping wings.
Tier set aside, you’re never in a situation where you want to waste HP to get the Dawn buff because it’s not related to how many HP you have but how many abilities you used.
You can, that’s for sure but that’s not getting max value.
Maybe that has some implication in PVP where you’re not always in range to hit FV but nobody waste HP in PVE to have 2 stacks of Dawn, that’s ludicrous.
(Two 195% AP FV (390%) is bigger than one 228% AP FV buffed at 40%)
So that means the gamemode creates the problem, not the base design.
And you can reliably get Dusk because, again, it’s not tied to HP amount, where as if it was like before you’d get to 5 then down to 1 or 2 (VoJ) then up again to varying amount depending on whether you played with 2HP BoJ or not and CSAA.
It was easier to manage with CS but it’s not optimal now and TS is down in the gutter.
1 HP judgement was also making it easier to manage but who wants that back?
I stand by what I said, way less frustrating with current design IMO.
Haven’t seen any compelling argument to the contrary.
Ret is 100% good. This is a git gud situation.
Fv does not need to cleave, it is what we have divine storm for.
What we need is better capstones for active skill use then the passive DA or searing light being passive. (If you can get searing light to even proc)
2 Likes
Yes it really does need to cleave. We have no answer for 2 target cleave besides go full ST and you can see how well that works on council, Ret is 2nd to last besides Aug which isn’t a real DPS. The only other thing would to be to buff DS damage and it would get weird trying to make it be better than TV on 2 targets while not going crazy on 5+ targets. Where simply making FV cleave up to 3 targets at 25-50% is a lot easier.
3 Likes
It cleaving defeats the purpose of divine storm. If anything, divine storm should do more damage on 3 targets and do dminished damage beyond that. This way it won’t kill DS proc builds.
Lol no it doesn’t because you still use DS for actual AOE, it provides a solution for a huge hole in our damage kit.
Buffing DS on 3 targets STILL doesn’t solve the problem of 2 target cleave.
DS already does reduced damage beyond 5 targets and you can see how Ret suffers in big pulls against other classes that have 8 and reduced, dropping it to 3 would be beyond horrible.
2 Likes
VoJ is trash, agreed there. The actual rotation and interaction between VoJ/Csaa/Divine Resonance is just not at all to my liking. Feels like too much of a dps loss to drop VoJ though sadly.
1 Like
Weaving in judgements in between Resonance is fun to me, it’s like a minigame I play each time DT is up but I can’t take VoJ for it though.
Some bosses are annoying to do that with, because of how far they are coupled with judgement travel time.
Yea good suggestions but as a broken record I am gonna keep bringing up havocs, demon blades vs insatiable hunger talent node that since being added to the game, demon blades has been the outperforming talent and blizzard instead of balancing both they jst left it as it is and started balancing havoc with demon blades in mind…
Never in a million years a fire and forget talent that removes skills feom your bar should outperform actually pressing the button. You and the others arw fine with it because csaa is just superior abd just scream and jump whenever I suggest nerfs to csaa.
I don’t really mind if they nerf it, that’s another way of bringing them on the same footing.
It already reduces the amount of auto-attacks you’d do if it wasn’t taken.
And less AA = less AoW proc which means less HP generation.
That’s part of why it’s not that far-fetched for both to be balanced.
Most likely a combination of nerf to CSAA and buff/change to TS would do the trick.
But as you point out, they never did for DH so I’m not holding my breath for Ret.
The main concern I’ve had with retribution in its current state is it’s not in its previous state. Immediately after the ret rework it was probably too strong, 3days later It received massive nerfs and was still okay to play. The next five weeks of being nerfed every week including in pvp talents and scaling has indeed removed all of the oomph as you described DH still has. Mobilty or lack there of aside, for pvp specifically, The nerfes to both damage and survivability were too much. This affected PVE as well where retribution has not been above fifth from last in DPS for all specs for quite a long time, often being last or close to it. Since Retributions not able to do the damage it did before, and is having its defensives removed early, and never had a mortal strike, instant mobility or grips, invisibility or disarm effects like other melee, its in a really bad spot.
Let’s say you’re a retribution paladin, and you spend a dozen or more talents specifically on defensives. You decide to do some pvp. Because you are a utility strong spec, enemies do not want to allow you to use your utility, so you are the their primary target. Because you’re the primary target and dying you attempt to use a defensive. Let’s say the enemy team has one of the following: warrior, monk, hunter, or demonolgy warlock… AND one of the following Literally any other spec.
Because of this, you expect to receive or are receiving lots of both physical and magical damage simultaneously. In response to receiving both types of damage you use bubble, and it’s removed 2 seconds later by shattering throw or mass dispell, 2 seconds after that you are dead and did use Divine Protection and Shield of Vengeance. Fun times. You would have used other blessings also, maybe a lay on hands, but forbearance locked you out of the rest of your defensives for 28seconds since your divine shield got removed early. Stuns and inturupts MUST be used to protect your divine shield and its usually not enough. Even if bubble lasts the 8 seconds you are LOS during it because enemies kite, which would be fair game if everyone didnt have more mobility than paladin, and then you die once divine shield falls off.
5 Likes
Before anyone asks for cc aa to be nerfed or anything else to be nerfed, Please keep in mind that the Talent is totally optional. Use it if you like or don’t, retribution is one of the weakest specs that exist so maybe don’t nerf it more.
4 Likes
I like the buffs that you suggested, I do not want the maintenance buff requiring me to do maintenance.
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Yeah, one of the major issues with Paladins, especially Holy, is that there is no dispel protection for their defensive magical abilities.
When you fight a UA lock, a Spriest, or Ele shaman, you have to take into consideration when you want to dispel their offensive debuffs because it comes with a powerful backlash.
It requires you to think about your choices.
When a Paladin hits BoF, BoP, or Bubble, the dispels are already being spammed, there’s no punishment, no thought.
Even the backlash on Shield of Vengeance, which used to be an amazingly fun RMP killer, was nerfed into the ground so you don’t even care about triggering the shield…
My main concern was that Ret being OP for those 2 weeks really masked the underlining problems with the spec.
- A lot of the Paladin class, especially Divine Shield and Blessing of Protection is outdated for 2024 WoW.
- Even if you love the abilities, think they are overpowered, they are not. I’m sorry they are not. These spells are easily countered and in a majority of content, it’s becoming more common to completely skip things like BoP all together as its so niche. (Raid and PvP more so than Mythic+)
- Our self healing talents aren’t competitive.
- Justicar’s Vengeance and Lightforged Blessings aren’t really common talents to choose, or aren’t efficient
- There’s no backlash to our defensive abilities.
- Our utility, such as mobility, knock backs, grips, etc… are non existent.
Why isn’t Ret fun? Well because its becoming a game where all I do it spam 4 abilities that are basically clones of one another. =/
2 Likes
I think a huge boon to ret in pvp would be a very simple pvp ret only talent.
That would be a pvp talent that makes HoJ undispellable.
Again, ret only. We don’t need holy throwing out undispellable hoj’s.
This alone would open up so many more comp options since we’re essentially limited to classes that can line up cross cc with hoj as often as possible to avoid dispell, so basically Hunter and war.
5 Likes
The entire spec is being balanced around the high hp flow and high procs. Tunning has nothing to do with nerfing csaa. It has to do with them pigeonholing us into that soecific talent that I haate. And no I cannot just “not pick” csaa because,picking ts is just shooting myself in the foot
Ret paladins have been a problem as soon as vers was the best stat for them any time a class scales well with any other stat they always appear at the top of the dps charts holy moly
2 Likes