Rets, calling all rets - pvp/pve buffs? thoughts? ideas?

Classes Paladin
21

I also agree with u we cant have aoe single and cleave all in one and be op, our aoe is in good spot now and on forti weeks it feels amazing to burst big packs

Our cleave is lacking to the point of having to prio single target if u dmg 3 targets and that might need some looking into not dmg buffs, but twerks that makes our soley single target spells cleave in 1 or 2 targets as talent or smth.

In single target we are worst on avibile data, and i think thats a problem, sure u will almost always in raid have someome worste than u thats not even trying, but in serious mythic grp it shows, also if u pug they swear by meta so less ppl will be willing to include you even if you are really good, i dont want us to be ss tier for raid but middle of the chart seems fine? For a class that has only 1 dps spec its only fair, its not fair having all 3 rouge dps spec top the charts.

Also u mentioned prot and holy being top as i understood? Thats not the case here prot is good but id put it on level of Brewmaster and Blood dk atm, Holy is decent but its again on level of Mistwaver, Resto dudu.

I personaly dont think paladins should be top pick or troll for any role, we should just be middle ground of everything as we bring so much utlitiy already to make us wanted in every situation.

2 Likes
22

Make Divine Arbiter powerful enough to play around intentionally. Provide ways to build stacks faster via Blessed Champion or something.

If ret ST and splash dmg scales with the size of the pull, I think that would be fantastic. As it is, HoW and Blessed Hammers are the most reliable ways to build stacks in AoE but HoW is the lowest prio cast in AoE. This would be just one reasonable adjustment.

Make this capstone something worthy of playing around, refine the synergies.

This is to say nothing of Searing Light…I think that needs to go back to the drawing board entirely. There’s no player interaction. Passives like that should be further up the tree imo, capstones should transform.

2 Likes
23

i what people to understand and not get mad. the only buffs for ret right now, realistically are aura buffs. the second best time for ret buffs is 10.2.7. that being said temper your expectations

-mastery stat buffed by 5% (this is already a solid stat rn with the new tierset. yes it was overnerfed but over buffing it isnt gonna fix rets issues. over buffing it wille lead to a snowball effect where we’ll want lower ilvl items and trinkets cause it has mastery. which is something on one wants)

-introduce a skill ceiling again. lfr larry can overcap hopo by 30+ and still parse orange. this isnt a good thing. nerf generators and buff spenders so theres incentive to not waste hopo. or reintroduce

-the return of seraphim. (yes people dislike this ability, yes its beating a deadhorse. but it had one job and it did it well. it provided a skill check for the spec. yes im sure “you” could do it and it “just sucked” but the amount of ret players that couldnt sync up our cds with serahpim was enough to cause a gate effect and allowed our spec to be properly tuned without worrying the casual base will dominate the lower bracket)

-less consistency more burst, move on, burst is king ret has always been a burst class. turning it into a consistency burst hybrid spec wasnt it. you can do this by buffing crusade by removing the ramp and limit/ adding sanct wrath.

  • make ds baseline and make tempest the first gate in the talent tree
  • righteous cause resets judgement instead of boj so all the dead judgement talents can not be dead
    -juristiction effects DS
    -vanguard momentum makes how cleave
    -rush of light works with ds
    blessed champion costs one talent point so does highlords
    -vanguard of justice removed or buffed to 5 hopo for higher damage
    -pentience effects all fire damage not just dots
  • burning crusade effects tv/fv
    -holy blades effects ds

gg you can leave the capstoens as is because these small changes to make specific aoe/st talents effect aoe or st will lower the gap significantly and allows the choice node of fr and es to exist. that or nerf es. DA and searing light is irrelevant and thus shouldnt be worried about

-replace quicjening invo for ret for ringing clarity. so the chocie node can be DR consistent damage or rc burst 1min damage

ret doesnt need a face lift, it just needs rnr

tank balancing is fantastic prot paladin is absolutely on the level of brew and bdk. if amything bdk is t he lowest offender

1 Like
24

We’ve discussed this a bit in the discord, but I agree with most of these points wholeheartedly. I can only hope perhaps in the next beta we see some of these changes or similar.

4 Likes
25

same
10/car

26

Great take. Realistically there won’t be any major changes to help reimagine Ret. The next tuning patch, will at best, include Ret with some tweaking (at worst ignored somehow).

They also should seriously consider adding effects to certain talents to help alleviate how dull and underwhelming our gameplay loop/performance is.

Ringing Clarity would finally make DT an actual cooldown again. Terrible take removing it.

On a unrealistic note: Ever notice that Paladins never got a new unique spell from SL that carried over to DF? (Warrior: Spear of Bastion, DH: The Hunt, Elysian Decree, Mage: Shifting Power, Rogue: Sepsis, DK: Abomination Limb, etc.) Our “unique” iconic ability is just an amplified Judgement turned AOE. Salt on the wound removing Ringing Clarity entirely. No imagination for many years now.

Bring back Guardian of Ancient Kings.

1 Like
27

yep, but luckily ret doesnt need some huge overhaul. the changes i posted will be enough along with basic ability tuning. all these small talents add up so fixing them to do both st and aoe instead of one of the other only. can leave ret in a better position. the finish line is right there and its clear that ret tripped inches before it, but its still in its threshold to cross it

28

And of course we receive the generic reaction this class tuning… “Retribution damage buff by 3%”.

What a comedy.

1 Like
29

This post will be coming from a PvP standpoint.

My days of Gladiator are long behind me, but I’m still a casual 2100-2400 player depending on how much I care to log on any given season, so take it for what you will.

The issues I usually have with Ret Paladins come down to:

  • The Class Tree hasn’t received its revamp

    • Paladins lack a “niche” in the game right now. (Both Ret and Holy)
    • While Dks have 5+ talents that revolve around snares, Dragons have 5+ talents that revolve around movement speed increases, and Warriors have 5+ talents that give them a tool for every situation… Paladins spend 8 talents in just stat increases.

  • The Spec Tree lacks fundamental Playstyle choices

    • ST vs AoE is more dictated by content than how you want to play your paladin.
    • I know not everyone will agree, this is a personal opinion, but I do think that WoW doesn’t have enough defining choices in the tree. I think this is something Hero Specs are trying to do in the future, but right now it feels like talents don’t give decisive play style options.

  • The PvP Talents haven’t received its revamp

    • Its pretty ridiculous that our PvP Talents have gone this long without being revamped
    • I hope this isn’t being put off till they revamp Prot, the Class Tree, and introduce Hero Talents but I assume that’s probably the case.
  1. There’s no class “niche.”

Paladins, the class, lack this defining unique class “niche.” Like I mentioned above, DKs have multiple talents, even those not necessarily relevant to any build, that emphasize their ability to snare their opponents. That’s what makes them frustrating to play against.

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If you fight a Death Knight, it feels as if you can never escape as you are either always slowed, gripped, or CC’d.

Paladins do not have this same level of emphasis when it comes to any kind of “niche” gameplay.

  • An example would be anti snare.
    • Paladins have Blessing of Freedom → Unbound Freedom/Echoing but that’s really it.

They don’t have Judgement remove snares, Steed removes snares, Cleanse removes snares, Consecration removing snares baseline, or any other form of anti snare you can think of.

They don’t have that super annoying strength.

  1. Our class talents do not “improve” our abilities, they just give more charges or shorter cooldowns.

A major problem with Paladins, is that the talents don’t ask you how you want to make an ability better.

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If we look at Shaman talents as an example, they are offered an ability, such as Cap. Totem, they are asked how they want to make that ability better.

  • Here’s Hex, do you want Hex to also slow targets?
  • Here’s Earthshield, do you also want to buff 2 targets with Earthshield?

Again, while Paladins do have Freedom and Unbound/Echoing, it is pretty much the only question they are asked in their talent tree options.

  • Here’s Cleanse, do you also want Cleanse to do ___________?
  • Here’s Steed, do you also want Steed to do _______ or _______?

There’s very few, if no interesting choices.

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So the class tree comes down to:

  1. What is the Paladin’s “niche?”
  2. What talents could be used to emphasize that niche?
  3. Do talents like BoF, BoSac, BoP, Cleanse, Steed, Repent, or LoH lead into interesting choices or spell altering effects?
    • If no, could they? What would they do?
  4. What new Blessings or Auras could be added?
  5. What new cap stone talents could be added?

Now, I’m not trying to really give my answer to the questions, but to ask, why is it fun to play a Paladin? What is that unique niche that Paladins showcase their strength in and is it being showcased in a meaningful way?

4 Likes
30

TL:DR at bottom.
-

  1. The Spec tree is where your dps playstyle should really take shape, however, I don’t think that Ret’s playstyle really gives definite decisions in how you want to shape your character.

    I think Hero Talents are being added to help address this, but I think this ultimately gives this feeling of underwhelming, half cooked ideas on how a Class could be played.

The issue with Ret, is that there are these “pockets” of talents that just don’t feel good or flushed out.

  • Crusader Strike, Crusading Strikes, Divine Hammers, Blades of Justice, Holy Blade, Templar Strikes, etc…
  • Empyrean Power, Empyrean Legacy, Sanctity, Tempest of the Lightbringer, Blades of Vengeance, etc…

Now when you look at the Spec:

  • Crusader Strike, Crusading Strikes, Divine Hammers, Blades of Justice, Holy Blade, Templar Strikes, Double Judge, Double Hammer of Wrath, etc… don’t really allow for a smooth rotation/gameplay.

    All these abilities give Ret this faceroll playstyle as it just gives Paladin 2 charges of every ability.

    Is Templar Strikes, Improved Blade of Justice, Double Judgement, Double Hammer of Wrath, and Divine Hammer a “smooth build” or is it just a bunch of random abilities that deal X holy damage and generate 1 HP?

Where is the skill involved in that?

Something that needs to happen is a clean up of all these abilities.

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As for the rest of the tree:

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The talents that feel good universally, are in the middle-- which is a good thing. These are “core talents” that work in any given situation and are good to be in the middle of the tree for any build.

Obviously things like Vanguard of Justice and Jurisdiction could use a little rearranging to be a bit more accessible, but those are talents that probably need a bit more adjusting as is.

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As you move to the ends of the tree, it kind of gives you this false illusion of making a Holystrike vs Radiant Paladin, but the talents above them don’t really aid in doing so. In addition, the “Radiant Paladin” is heavily focused in AoE, making it not a choice of play style, but content.

So we go into one of these “pockets” of abilities that just feel like they aren’t quite hitting their mark.

  • Tempest of the Lightbringer is a good talent.
  • Blades of vengeance isn’t as exciting as it could be.
  • Inquisitor’s Ire doesn’t really emphasize Radiant damage without Burning Crusade.
  • Sanctify feels a bit underwhelming.
  • Empyrean Legacy and Empyrean Power feel redundant and a bit clunky.

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As we look to the Holystrike vs Radiant build, we see that talents feel a bit scattered and Radiant rely almost entirely on AoE.

Even abilities like Blade of Justice don’t do Radiant Damage for some reason, and Blade of Vengeance only contributes to Radiant Damage if Expurgation is taken as well.

In addition, the animation of abilities like Divine Hammer and Divine Storm, do not change when altered by the talent Burning Crusade, giving this weird feel of fantasy.

Abilities that look Holy, Divine Storm and Divine Hammer, do Radiant damage, and abilities that look Radiant, BoJ, do holy damage.

  • Imagine if Frostfire Bolt had an animation of just Frost bolt.

All in all, this doesn’t really give any satisfying playstyles, imo. Instead of offering a really fun and interesting Holystrike build and a really fun and interesting Radiant Build, with the option to mix and match if you so choose, we just get this half baked mess.

While I know this seems like a lot, this was mainly just the explanation of why things feel the way they do. Basically it comes down to:

TL:DR:

Our baseline abilities need to be cleaned up.

  • Crusader Strike →
    • Improved Crusader Strike
    • Crusading Strikes
    • Templar Strikes
  • Blade of Justice →
    • Improved Blade of Justice
    • Holy Blade
  • Vanguard’s Momentum
  • Divine Hammer

Less is more, and currently these talents give Ret too many charges of all these abilities, and make them all fundamentally have the same effect. Deal XYZ Holy damage and generate 1 Holy Power.

After that is figured out, simply reevaluate all these talents. :slight_smile:

Then revamp the PvP ones, lol.

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Keeping in mind, I am aware Blessed Champion gives cleave to Crusader Strike. So I know it’s not that easy, but Blessed Champion isn’t the most ideal talent in showing CS cleaves.

The animation isn’t really there, apposed to things like Sweeping Strikes or Improved Death Coil.

If Blessed Champion isn’t negotiable, then obviously sticking to an improved version of Crusader Strike is always an option.

  • Baseline: Crusader Strike
  • Talent Choice 1: Crusading Strikes
  • Talent Choice 2: Fires of Justice

Or whatever. ¯\ _ (ツ)_/¯

3 Likes
31

Very thorough analysis and summary. Heavily agree with your opinion. You hit the primary issue on the head and +10 points for the visuals.

I personally enjoy Crusading Strikes as an ability. Removes the need to press Crusader Strike as a bland filler (all our buttons are bland fillers as you’ve shown) and has nice synergy with Blessed Champion and Crusader’s Reprieve.

I’d rather gain 1HP every swing to drop the need to track which auto will provide HP. It leads to starved and awkward down time and other times where you’re trying to spend 5HP on global and the Crusading HP gets lost in the abyss.

Talk about decisions… remember when Radiant Decree existed? A brand new spell and take on Wake of Ashes and an interactive choice making a builder into a spender. I absolutely loved it and it got deleted in favor of a rework with more dead nodes.

Glad to see someone else with a similar point of view. Good post.

2 Likes
32

Yeah, I think that’s a big problem with Paladins just in terms of DPS playstyles and how fun it is to just press buttons.

I think a lot of players who don’t multi-class don’t realize how much better a lot of other classes’ rotations feel due to the uniqueness of abilities.

When you visualize it:

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  • 2x charges on all abilities, deal X holy damage, generate 1 HP… it’s not very fun…

There this need for more identity and that “feel good” feeling when you press buttons, and I think that foundation needs to be put in place in terms of making Ret feel fluid.

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  • Say I want Crusading Strikes and Holy Blade to be a bit more Holystrike based…

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  • Or say, Fires of Justice and Templar Strikes to be a bit more Radiant based…

If you’re designing the “MOBA Paladin” what 4 abilities feel good to press and what do they do?

  • Crusader - a mix of Holy/Radiant?
  • Herald of the Sun - heavy Radiant based?
  • Templar - heavy Holystrike based?

I think that helps build upon talents in a more meaningful way, and gives more meaning to the button press.

What are the Judgement Talents?

  • Judgement now has 2 charges
    or
  • Judgement now generates 2 Holy Power
  • Increases the critical strike chance of Judgement

What are the Hammer of Wrath Talents?

  • Hammer of Wrath now has 2 charges
  • Hammer of Wrath now generates 2 Holy Power when used below 20%.
  • Increases the critical strikes chance of Hammer of Wrath

When you look past the numbers, the spec still has a lot of bland and boring aspects to it, and like I said before, no “niche” that’s emphasized in the class and PvP Talents.

1 Like
33

This, for me, hit the nail right on the head.

1 Like
34

i really dont see how people get these “starved and awkward downtimes” theres only 1 noticeable pause in an entire 5min encounter if you play your rotation correctly. that being said. csaa generating 1 hopo per swing would be broken bad and will further diminish our resources even more this isnt healthy for a spec that already doesnt care if you overcap hopo or not

35

You said it yourself we already have an issue with over-capping so really it wouldn’t make a difference except when you’re starved for HP due to involuntary HP regen.

It’s also more noticeable in PVE since you always play 1 charge Judgement for 2HP with 2 charge BoJ for 1HP. It shows plenty in higher key scenarios.

36

so because the spec already has the issue, its okay to make the issue worse? thats not a good mentality to have.

ive never once found this to be the case, especially when you spend at 4 hopo and thus not overcap. your rotation flows like butter when you have it down to a silence. for keys it especially doesnt apply bcause you dont use vanguard of justice and thus can spend at 3 hopo. unironically this is sounding like a skill issue with the sheer amount of people who claim that ret becomes giga slow with downtime due to csaa when nothing really changes

37

“Because I never experience it, it doesn’t exist.”
Ignorant.

Why is it a skill issue just because you don’t experience it when doing your low keys?
The real irony is mentioning anything about skill when your current highest timed key is a +17. You’re not doing any content where targets have actual health pools.

It’s been noted by many different players that it CSAA leaves gaps in rotation because it’s the truth.

CSAA having 1HP per swing makes it predictable and simple to track. It doesn’t worsen or change the issue Ret has.

38

me never experiencing it meant im not playing my rotation like a goober

how does “more hp” have anything to do with rotation? adds living more isnt going to make me play more like a goober. when the rotation boils to boj, judgement csaa spender boj judgement spender

and many players end up mis managing their generators with all the log reviews i do.

having csaa generate 1 hopo per swing makes the spec incredilble unhealthy and makes our resource more useless t han it is. you can also run ts/cs the difference is still within margin.

39

Give us Guardian of Ancient Kings Blizzard.

40

For what? is just another burst button. Guardian also meant you couldnt burst right away because the guardian had to attack and stack the str buff.